History Memes

Plato blamed democracy for the death of Socrates. It was a sore spot for him. I think that having a ruling class that effectively made decisions democratically within their class was his compromise.

I don't think there's any 'compromise' about it. He doesn't come off as having anything in the way of a 'modern' view of liberty and individuality, and seems to have little interest in portraying himself as such; only his reputation as a titan of philosophy makes people reluctant to ascribe the clearly oligarchic views he's expressing to him.

This isn't all that unusual for his time period. But that makes it all the more important to acknowledge.

I think that he would say that there are so many more people ruled by their stomachs (base desires) than by their hearts (honor and duty) or their heads (reason) that by giving everyone a vote democracy guarantees that the state is ruled by its stomach.

Yes, he repeatedly expresses deep disdain for ordinary people and 'base' human desires. The man says "No problem with homosexuality except for the icky carnal stuff" and "Sex should be by government lottery for purposes of procreation"

His system places the responsibility of voting in the hands of those that have demonstrated that they are ruled by their heads and who have been trained to place the good of the state above all else. Restricting the vote means that the state will be ruled by its head and democratizing decisions among the ruling class defuses power to safeguards against corruption.

Okay, so how is that voting system different than any other oligarchy of the ancient world?

Plato's proposed system, heavy on concept and light on details (which is fine for a philosophical work), differs primarily in the intentional construction of the institutions of the state and a unity of purpose in their design; and in the idea that an educated exclusively-ruling class would be in some way inclined to pursue justice.

Plato's Republic boils down to "If we educated our oligarchs and told them to be really strict with themselves (and especially the filthy poors), Justice Will Win In The End"

You would think all of ten minutes talking with other educated people would disabuse him of that notion, but I guess they didn't receive the right education.

A few hundred years later and half the world away, China's Confucian bureaucratic class would begin to take form, and boy, wouldn't you know? It has a lot of similarities with the proposed structure of Plato's Republic, including the emphasis on a self-selecting non-military ruling caste dedicated solely to governance and education, especially philosophical education.

Would you like to guess as to how just it was?

For a more modern example, you can look at any technocracy or Vanguardist regime of the 20th century and judge for yourself if a self-selecting caste of men educated in either practical matters (largely the former) or the humanities (largely the latter) with a clear intention of reconstructing society in their own image and with significant restrictions on the accumulation of personal property have made any exceptional progress towards a just society - or if they've done the exact opposite.

Who watches the watchmen is a universal critique that no system seems to have a good answer to.

Aristotle and early Roman government both came up with a solution. Checks and balances.

There is no peace but deterrence. There is no deterrence without power.

But that means everyone must share in the task to some degree - everyone must be part of governance, including the farmers, including the artisans, including the soldiers. An unacceptable deviation from the notion of singular purpose espoused by Plato's Republic, wherein the people are not even to take up arms when the state is militarily outnumbered by its enemies (because it's not their job).

In Plato’s system the answer is primarily the military class.

They literally are excluded from decision-making and are restricted to the enforcement of the dictates of the Guardians. He compares them to dogs at one point.

They are responsible for upholding the laws

Yes.

and ensuring that the state is a just system.

No. That would not be their purpose, and everyone is to stay in their own narrow specialization in the idea of Plato's Republic. Having people who do not specialize in understanding justice and governance making decisions related to justice and governance would be the literal opposite of what Plato is arguing for in the dialogue.

It’s been years since I last read The Republic but if I remember correctly anyone had the right to inspect the philosophers for corruption.

Again, that would go against the entire ideal of Plato's Republic, wherein the third class of people are not to concern themselves with anything except following the dictates of the state, which is ruled by the Guardians who, alone, have the time and specialization to understand true justice.

Plato’s system was theoretical and untested by application. We also have the benefit of looking back on it with the accumulated knowledge and experience of 2,500 years. I don’t argue that it’s perfect or that there aren’t valid criticisms. I interpreted your meme to say that Plato just wanted to put himself in charge. I don’t think that particular criticism is valid.

The Obama Awarding Obama meme isn't about power, it's about self-praise.

Plato says that if only philosophers like him ruled the world, there would be possible this utopia which is massively more just than any other extant system (despite reading like a dystopia to modern, liberal, non-aristocratic eyes).

Plato's Republic is important. Plato is an important figure in the history of Western philosophy. Plato made major contributions to the development of philosophy and modern thought, including by writing the Republic in the first place.

... but the core proposal of the Republic (whether read metaphysically or literally) remains utterly broken even at a glance, the 'dialogue' absurd in the lack of pushback received by Plato's mouthpiece, and the preconceptions involved (most relevant to the meme) masturbatory even if they were correct.