this post was submitted on 05 Mar 2026
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[–] ragepaw@lemmy.ca 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

The US is in violation of the UN charter. Article 5 doesn't apply.

You are making disingenuous arguments. By your logic, if Iran counter attacks US forces, that we are required to declare war on Iran because they attacked US forces. That is completely, and blatantly false.

it says nothing there about whether or not it's unprovoked, or anything at all about who did what to whom

It does.

The US has broken the rules defined in the UN charter and the NATO charter specifically calls out, "collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations". The US, being the aggressor and in contravention of the UN charter, does not get coverage from article 5 of the NATO charter.

It's pretty clear.

An "armed attack" is literally just that...an armed attack.

Again, you don't understand it. Because even NATO itself doesn't interpret that clause in that way.

However, what amounts to an ‘armed attack’ in the context of Article 5 must be assessed on a case-by-case basis and is not limited to traditional notions of overt military strikes by a state actor.

So, no. It's not just "an armed attack". NATO as an organization understands nuance.

The obligation to assist an Ally “forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties” arises when two conditions are met:

an Ally has sustained an ‘armed attack’ as described above (the assessment of which is to be conducted in good faith by all Allies, whether individually or collectively), and the attacked Ally requests or consents to collective action under Article 5. An attacked Ally may choose not to seek assistance under Article 5, and instead address the situation through other avenues.

Consensus decision-making is a fundamental principle. It has been accepted as the sole basis for decision-making in NATO since the creation of the Alliance in 1949. Consensus decision-making means that there is no voting at NATO. Consultations take place until a decision that is acceptable to all is reached.

So the US would need to ask for article 5 to be invoked, and the other countries get to review and decide if they want to. Is the US going to get every member to unanimously agree that it should happen? Fuck no. This is the part of the rules where we can say, "You started this shit, it's your problem to deal with."

Now let's play pretend for a moment and say it does get consensus.

It is up to individual Allies to determine how they will implement the mutual assistance obligation, so long as their efforts can be regarded as consistent with what is necessary “to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.” Action pursuant to Article 5 may or may not involve the use of armed force.

So, it is very easy for a NATO member to say, Hey Don, this is a FAFO situation. You did the FA, now time to FO. No one needs to provide military assistance.

When Article 5 is triggered, each Ally is obliged to assist the attacked Ally or Allies by taking “such action as it deems necessary” to respond to the situation.

We could choose an extremely benign form of assistance. Like helping evacuate civilians from affected areas, or provide hospitals with medical supplies, or any of a number of non-military options.

There will NEVER be a point where any non-US NATO member is forced into a shooting war with Iran unless they are directly attacked. And there is no obligation for any NATO member to join the US in a shooting war.

My original statement stands 100%

Even if the US did invoke article 5, NATO members don't have to participate, because the US started it. You cannot be the aggressor and then claim self-defence.

[–] Archangel1313@lemmy.ca 2 points 1 day ago

You are making disingenuous arguments. By your logic, if Iran counter attacks US forces, that we are required to declare war on Iran because they attacked US forces. That is completely, and blatantly false.

That's not what I said, at all. I'm starting to understand your confusion. You aren't reading what I'm writing.

I have said several times now, that article 5 does not kick in, unless a member nation is DIRECTLY attacked. I have also stated several times that it does not apply to forces abroad. I was also very clear in one comment in particular that Iran has every right to defend themselves against military targets that are attacking them. They just wouldn't be able to justify attacking civilian targets within the US, without it being considered an "attack" on the United States itself. THAT would trigger article 5.

If you're going to argue so hard, try paying attention to what the other person is actually saying.

The US has broken the rules defined in the UN charter and the NATO charter specifically calls out, "collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations". The US, being the aggressor and in contravention of the UN charter, does not get coverage from article 5 of the NATO charter.

That's not what article 51 says. It simply states that any UN member nation has the right to self-defense...and allows for collective self-defense agreements to be made between members. That's all. It doesn't say, "except when the member nation is the aggressor", or "except when the member nation has recently committed war crimes". That's not in there. It's also not in the NATO charter either. You keep making that up.

By all means, quote the actual text where it says what you say it does. We're talking about legally binding text. If conditions like the ones you are describing are supposed to be in there...it will state them in the text. So please, quote it. So far all you've done is quote the parts that don't say that.

As for the rest of what you did quote, none of that negates what I'm saying or confirms you're saying. That just details the specifics of how NATO members are obligated to respond. Yes, NATO members can determine for themselves whether or not an "attack" actually occurred. They can also determine for themselves the type and amount of assistance they will provide in defense of their allies.

So what? How does that change anything? If Iran launched missiles at say, New York city...would there be any doubt about whether that constitutes an "attack" against the US? Any NATO member that tried to argue "that didn't count because FAFO", would most likely be declaring their intention to leave the alliance in the process. Member nations don't have to follow each other into wars that other members have started...but they are obligated to defend each other from obvious attacks.

If all that means is that they send ships to patrol the US coastline, or send emergency crews into New York to help with clean-up and casualties...then they've fulfilled their obligations. But refusing to provide something in defense or support of each other, would violate the agreement. Unlike the UN Charter, NATO's article 5 is binding. While there is flexibility regarding how they fulfill their obligations, they can't just "opt-out" altogether, when it's convenient.