this post was submitted on 26 Mar 2026
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[–] WoodScientist@lemmy.world 3 points 16 hours ago (1 children)

If there's no clear scientific consensus, then why in fuck's sake could you possibly justify a sports ban? You could actually be a child molesting pedophile. I have no evidence for or against this claim. But I better call the cops on you just in case!

You're demanding someone prove a negative. That is not how proof works. You can scientifically proof Bigfoot exists. Find a Bigfoot corpse? Call in some scientists and they'll document it, analyze it, read its DNA, and scientifically prove with a mountain of evidence that Bigfoot exists. In contrast, it's impossible to prove that Bigfoot does not exist. There could always be some hidden cave or remote mountain valley somewhere where, against all odds, there actually is a population of large non-human primates living on the North American continent. I can prove Bigfoot exists. I cannot prove that Bigfoot does not exist. That is simply the nature of logic and proof.

You're approaching this from a flawed premise. You're effectively saying, "I will accept trans women in women's sports when you conclusively prove they have no advantage whatsoever." But that's demanding proof of a negative. It is possible to prove an advantage. It is not possible to prove the non-existence of an advantage. Rather, the default assumption should be that no advantage exists. Since all secondary sex characteristics, including differences in musculature, come from lifetime hormone exposure, the default assumption should be that no advantage exists. Even men growing larger than women is because of hormone exposure at different periods in life. So if you switch someone's hormones, the default assumption should be that no advantage exists. And basic humanity dignity and respect for human beings demands that you start by assuming a position of equality.

The burden of proof is on those demanding we strip people of their liberty and dignity. The burden of proof is on those who would do real tangible harm to a group of people. Remember, these are lives we're talking about. You're arguing a hypothetical, but we're talking about real human beings. And we know that trans women athletes will be harmed by being excluded from women's sports. They certainly can't meaningfully compete against cis male athletes. By excluding trans women from women's sports, you are making it so trans women cannot compete in any competitive sport at all. That's an entire realm of the human experience you're cutting them out from.

If it can be proven that some overwhelming advantage exists, sure. On a sport-by-sport basis, perhaps bans would be justifiable. But you need to actually prove real harm before you start taking people's civil rights away. You are demanding proof that no advantage exists. You should be starting by demanding those who would take away civil rights present a rigorous case and actually prove real harm.

[–] Tmiwi@lemmy.world -1 points 13 hours ago

I wasn't aware I was justifying anything, I'm just trying to form an opinion that I can hold moving forward.

It seems I've caused offence here and that was never my intent.

You raise an interesting point about the burden of proof, as you put it.

I'm not entirely certain about your point, well made as it is (I like the Bigfoot analogy), that the default position should be that there is no advantage when there's lots of proof that, in certain activities, men have physical advantages over women.

I guess I just want to have a solid idea of when or if those advantages do in fact disappear to a point that it doesn't matter any more.

But as you've pointed out I'm really not sure how that can be proved, which leaves the argument open for those who do want total bans or whatever to argue that they will always be there.

As to the point about infringement of rights etc, I certainly want anyone to be able to do and be celebrated in whatever they put their time and effort into. I live with three women, all of whom have stated that they feel their rights to compete on an even playing field could be negated by trans athletes with possible advantages from their previous gender (I'm sorry if my phrasing is offensive, I don't mean it to be). How should this be answered? I'm not a woman and I've been slightly stumped tbh.

When it comes to sport by sport bans, the one I always have brought up to me is strength based sports, the skeletal differences, bone mass, differing physiological differences of muscle mass and such is often cited to me in these conversations.

Are these things that are completely negated through hormone therapy?

Thank you for engaging with me and not attacking me for asking, I really appreciate it.