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this post was submitted on 02 Oct 2023
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8 years!
No!!
8 years, 6 months!
Sold!!!
Defense lawyer here, though not in New York so take this all with a grain of salt, I just felt I should put my 2 cents in based on the vibes in this comment thread.
It is weird for a judge to go against a joint recommendation, which seems to have happened here. It takes something extraordinary. The article indicates that the judge felt she didn't truly feel remorse for her actions, which could do it, but doesn't always do it. But, to me, just the fact that the judge went against a joint recommendation will always raise an eyebrow. Usually, if the sentence isn't harsh enough, the prosecutor won't agree to it, and if it's too harsh, the defense won't agree to it. So joint recommendations are almost always followed.
Yes, it's "only" 6 more months, but that's really not insignificant.
Now, to all the people screaming about how it's not enough (and especially to the one person saying she should have her citizenship revoked (????)), I wonder, how many of you are also against the prison industrial complex we have here in America? I challenge you to think beyond your initial emotions. Is this death tragic? Yes, absolutely it is. It was senseless violence for no good reason. So I agree, it deserves a harsh punishment.
But everyone keeps calling it murder. Not every killing is a murder. I also want to challenge people to watch their language. Murder carries with it an intent to kill. A shove does not intend death, regardless of who is being shoved. No, it shouldn't have happened, yes, it's tragic, but it was not a murder.
Now, all of you calling for 20+ years, really think about what you're saying. Do you think this person has no chance of rehabilitation? Those are the people we put away for life. I don't think that's the case here. She fucked up. Obviously. She deserves to be punished harshly, and make no mistake, she is. 8.5 years is a LONG time. Think back to where you were 8.5 years ago. Were you the same person? I doubt it. Now, do you think she might better herself in those 8.5 years? I think it's very likely, though again, the prison industrial complex makes that less guaranteed.
Sentences have many goals. Some of the primary goals are punishment, protection of the public, and rehabilitation of the defendant. Does this sentence punish her? Yes, a lot. Does this sentence give her a chance for rehabilitation? I'm not sure on that one, but that's because it may, if anything, be too long, and cause her to get too used to life in prison, and increase her likelihood of recidivism. But that's not her fault, that's the fault of the prison industry. Does this sentence protect the public? I say yes. She lost her temper once and it's now going to cost her 9 years of her life (if you include the duration of the case). That's a hell of an incentive not to repeat.
Alright, I think that's all I really want to say. But please, everyone, in the future, try to think about how our prison system really works, and how much you support it, when you're discussing individual crimes, not just when you're talking about the system as a whole. I think most people on this site lean left, and therefore should support reducing the prison populations, but this comment section has me worried with everyone here frothing at the mouth to give MORE prison time, when the sentenced amount should be enough to satisfy our sentencing goals.
It was first degree manslaughter- the article says she was facing "up to 25 years." She threw a tantrum about being asked to leave a park that was closing, threw her dinner on her fiance, "stormed down the street" then saw a little (100lbs vs her 175) old lady across the street, crossed the street while calling her a bitch, then shoved her onto her head. I don't think 9 years is too long for society to be protected from her.
The court ruled "not a murder" because it was just a shove, but anyone could have seen than a shove like that would likely kill a small 87 year old woman and it certainly wasn't an accident. The woman wasn't just in her way while she was angry walking down the street. She went out of her way to attack the woman.
Then there's the part where she evaded police for weeks, hiding her phone at a separate location, changing locations multiple times. I don't think the longer end of her sentencing options would have been unreasonable at all.
I don't necessarily disagree with you. I don't think there's really a number of years to put on it to make it appropriate. But I'm sure the lawyers discussed all the points you raised in negotiating this sentence. These numbers aren't pulled out of our asses, there are guidelines (almost certainly, again, not barred in NY) which help ensure similarly situated defendants are sentenced similarly.
What I'd like to hear more about, is whether the judge also ordered some kind of anger management counseling. I think that's what she needs more than a longer sentence.
If we truly want to balance the goals of protecting the public, adequately punishing the defendant, and also rehabilitating her, I don't think a few more years either way is what makes the biggest difference. I think it more depends on what she does with that time. I'm not sure what the situation is like within New York prisons as far as counseling goes, but if they have good programs, it's hard for me to imagine, if she takes it seriously, that 8.5 years of good counseling wouldn't be helpful to her, and to society at large.
I also think she could make all those gains in counseling, again, if she truly takes it seriously, within a couple of years. But then, I could probably be convinced that 2-3 years isn't long enough for causing someone's death. I've seen people get that for having the wrong amount of weed on them.
But then we get into the larger discussion about the entire prison industrial complex. We need some kind of change with how our prisons operate. Exactly how that looks isn't the point here. I'm just trying to point out that there's a bigger picture in play, and hope that people will consider that in the future.
In the end, nothing we say here has any impact on her life or the issued sentence. But it might have a difference in how people perceive and talk about the system as a whole in the future, so I think it's important to not lose sight of that.
I don't give a fuck about rehabilitation. There's 8 billion people on this planet, we can afford to dispose of the shitty ones. Spend those resources that would go towards rehabilitating her on someone who needs help and hasn't killed any innocent old women.
What's the point of rehabilitation if you just arbitrarily decide that people aren't worth it?
It's not arbitrary, it's based off the fact she threw a tantrum and killed a person.
but don’t you get?
this is a good white woman who made an honest mistake (anyone could have done the same)
not some black hooligan selling loose cigarettes
/s if not obvious
Well said. This should be the top comment. You helped me calm down with this.
Well said. Lemmy, like Reddit, and probably every other social media platform, is quick to grab up those torches and pitch forks.
Well put.
We're reaching a French revolution type point in American history. There are people who are the product of absurd privilege, and there is everyone else.
This is tipping the scales a little bit back out of the favor of privilege. In the grand scheme, it's effectively misguided and miniscule. But it's a sign of progress nonetheless.
Our legal system sucks ass. There's no reason why so much of our population should be imprisoned for relatively minor reason... but we're also used to money being more important than culpability. Affluenza, rapists getting off because it would be detrimental to their future to be held accountable, or generally rich people being able to pay for their crimes financially instead of punitively.
So when someone from a perceived place of privilege is actually held to the same standards as one of us serfs, it's usually celebrated. It sucks, but it's true.
This thread more of an indictment of our shitty legal system than of the defendant.