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this post was submitted on 11 Nov 2023
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And they had no way out. I was talking to some complete fool the other day who said that Gazans should just flee on rafts like African migrants do. As if Israel wouldn't blow them out of the fucking water with their navy.
Also, Egypt is not getting enough blame for not letting Gazans out through their border. They need to. That makes them a partner in this genocide even if they're not an active partner.
I learned about this BS for the first time wondering that same thing, somehow Israel also controls the Gaza/Egypt border https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philadelphi_Route
Yeah, although read the 'After 2007' part. Egypt hasn't exactly been helping Palestinians cross the border. The sad fact is that Palestinians are treated like shit in the rest of the Arab world and Israel is a good cover for that because they're far, far worse. But it's not like Jordan has ever let them live with the rest of Jordanian society or offer them citizenship despite Palestinians living in Jordan for decades. And the claim from Jordan and Egypt is "we can't offer them citizenship because then Israel will not let them return to their homeland," which is, frankly a bullshit excuse because it doesn't let Palestinians decide for themselves what they want.
I am not trying in any way to lessen Israel's part in this. They are the ones committing genocide. There is no question about that. But Israel's neighbors don't actually care, which is why they're not doing anything about it.
ah that's my bad, I didnt realize it had changed
That link suggests differently:
Wow, I wonder why Egypt, a country that suffered from the evils of the Muslim Brotherhood severely, would be unaccepting of a border controlled by an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood? Must be the Jews fault.
I get it though. Israel has in the past expelled Palestinians and not allowed them to return leaving them stateless wherever they took shelter. Egypt doesn't want a million people to suddenly become their problem permanently.
They already are their problem permanently.: "Estimates of the size of the Palestinian population in Egypt range from 50,245 to 110,000." The 'not allowed to return' thing is a bullshit excuse to deny them citizenship because it doesn't give them the opportunity if they want it, keeping them as a second class, and Egypt knows it. What about the Palestinians that don't want to return? The ones who want to live in Egypt? Egypt says fuck them.
Eh, accepting 2 millions refugees is an enormous feat. No western countries would be willing to accept 2 millions refugees at once, so we realistically can't expect Egypt, with significantly worse economy than western countries, could accept 2 million refugees without massive assistance from other countries.
Oh how short memories we have. The Muslim Brotherhood did some absolute fucked up shit in Egypt. There's a reason them and their offshoots (like Hamas) are banned there.
Gazans are not all Hamas or the Muslim Brotherhood. So maybe Egypt should treat them like they're all criminals?
Do you remember the shit the Brotherhood did in Egypt?
Again- Gazans are not all Hamas or the Muslim Brotherhood. So maybe Egypt should treat them like they’re all criminals?
Do you remember 9/11? Should all Muslims in the U.S. be treated live second-class in perpetuity because if it?
You don't remember what happened do you? Can you name one atrocity that the brotherhood did in Egypt?
Irrelevant. Are all Palestinians in the Muslim Brotherhood? Unless they all are, it doesn't matter what the Muslim Brotherhood did.
It seems like you're doing a racist "you can't trust a Palestinian" thing to me.
How is it irrelevant? It directly caused Egypt's current policies.
You keep refusing to answer my question. You are not here in good faith.
I'm arguing in good faith. You're ignoring the atrocities committed in recent memory. People in Egypt lost family to the Brotherhood's actions and they're unwilling to forget that.
You still haven't answered my question. So no, you're not. If you were, you would have answered it the first time I asked it.
I did answer it.
No you did not. For the last time: Are all Palestinians in the Muslim Brotherhood?
No of course not all Palestinians (or all Gazans) in the Muslim Brotherhood. But the risk of Hamas sneaking through is too high for Egypt to tolerate.
Sort of like how the risk of Al Qaeda sneaking into the U.S. was too high to tolerate after 9/11 and that's why we should deny all Muslims U.S. citizenship to this day, right?
That's an opinion a lot of people had in 2011, ten years after the attack. And the Muslim Brotherhood killed more people in Egypt in its reign of terror than AQ did in 9/11.
Once again, you didn't answer my question. I didn't ask what opinion "a lot of people had." I'm not talking to them. Why do I have to keep asking you questions multiple times?
I don't agree with the Egypt part. It's a sovereign country and has the right to refuse to give up an entire peninsula of their land.
Israel is betting on them to open the doors so they can just take Gazan land like they want to. It's even pressuring Europe for weeks now to pressure Egypt. So there is a plan there and it won't be in favour of Gazans.
It's also a country that has its own shit going on. As soon as they open the border, the world will look away as if they've solved something and the Gazans will never have the right to return to their country because there will be no more Gaza.
No one is asking Egypt to give up land and there are already thousands of Palestinians in Egypt who have been there for decades and Egypt (and Jordan) continue to make the 'we can't give them citizenship because then they'll be unable to return' bullshit in order to keep them second-class and make them work the most menial jobs. Palestinians are treated like shit in those countries. Stop excusing their behavior as some sort of humane response.
Maybe. But I'm a second generation living in Europe and my third and fourth generation cousins are still treated like a 'foreigner' so that's where my stance comes from.
But you make a good point. No one should be treated like shit.
Egypt knows any Palestinian refugee that leaves Palestine will never be allowed to return home. Letting Gazans into Sinai would be to permanently accepting them, and also likely result in Israel invading Egypt to create a “safe zone”, possibly dragging Egypt into the war. The Gazans would be politically destabilizing, due to the strain that admitted potentially over a million refugees with nothing would cause on the already struggling domestic economy.
What if the Palestinian refugee doesn't want to return home? Why isn't that up to them? Because Egypt doesn't want them. They would be fine if they all left right now.
Well the Palestinians aren’t being given a choice regardless, so your hypothetical is a bit moot.
How is them not being allowed citizenship if they want it moot? Egypt and Jordan could offer it to them any time they wanted. But they're using this as an excuse to keep them as second-class and keep them working the shit jobs no one else in those countries want to do. All because "they might get to return someday." It's a bullshit excuse to treat them like shit.