this post was submitted on 22 Dec 2023
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How can you tell "deradicalizing" from "being friendly" by just seeing people sit at the same table? One of the strategies for deradicalization, is precisely having positive experiences with people the group/sect has vilified.
No. In a nazi-free area, just kick the nazi, that's easy. What I'm arguing is that you should give the benefit of the doubt to the other 9 people. Don't assume.
Let me clear that up:
These are not either-or.
Not very young, maybe confused, maybe living in a different society, most likely with different life experiences.
Thank you for trying to explain some concepts. I learned some stuff in that other post, and I'm grateful for that (even if the conclusion was depressing).
Is this another "learn the book of forbidden words" situation?
I refused to read into white supremacist propaganda any further than seeing their basic manipulation strategies, and that was a few decades ago. Are you asking me to read the updated version?
Over the past several days I’ve seen you draw out many good faith disagreements about racism or nazism into what seem like intentionally blurry “just asking questions” type derailments whereby you try to shift the topic of the discussion to other, emotional or tangential details and or try to misrepresent the issue at hand to make the racism or nazism seem not that bad. I really don’t think someone would do that if they were coming from a place of genuine confusion or curiosity or dialogue. I might be wrong, but taken together it really gives the impression, intent aside, that you’re trying to spin up plausible arguments for far right stuff and then sow confusion whenever people say “hey, don’t do that, it’s harmful”. I just don’t believe there’s wiggle room here. I don’t want to have a circular conversation about it, but i do want to point out directly what you’re doing, because I think it sucks, and I think that you should stop.
Ok, let's be direct: I'm against nazism, racism, sexism, pretty much the concept of -isms itself, and a techno-anarcho-communist at heart. I generally try to avoid putting too much of my own bias into things, and I do have a tendency to focus on exploring a single aspect of an argument (you could call it "tangential details")... but if you see me use anything resembling "far right arguments", then it means I've gone too far and I will be grateful if you, or anyone else, call me out on it.
Is that acceptable?
I think I've only pulled one emotional tangent, just because it's impacting me personally right now. It's hard to be objective about that. But I found the following discussion educative, so... I'm serious: thanks everyone for answering.
PS: merry holidays 🎄🥂
All areas should be nazi-free areas. If any of them are truly attempting to de-radicalize someone they would know that there is a time and place for it, and out in general society is not it.
This is very reductive, dismissive and exactly the kind of thing a white supremacist would say to try and justify saying something shitty. Which is exactly PotentiallyAnApricot's point. I could chock it up to naivety, but just as an outside observer on this thread and others, I don't think it is.
Dismantling systemic oppression personally, interpersonally, and in greater society is a constant process. Especially as a white person. Saying you did some research decades ago and are all good now is not how it works.
Now, this is reductive and dismissive. "Tow it outside the environment" is not an option, you can only create reservation, concentration, and general areas.
Part of de-radicalization is reinsertion into general society. Can't be done outside. Studies have shown that de-radicalization actually lags way behind reinsertion. What you're proposing are lifelong reeducation camps.
The what? Not sure if you realize, but stuff like this "Especially as a [whatever]" is what pushes people over the line.
This is not what I said.
It is very much an option, and one that works. You can't have an inclusive society if you accept members that want other members dead.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
After they are no longer a nazi. If they are still a nazi, they belong outside society.
Ok, to be be less specific, especially as the people that benefit from systemic oppression we have to keep more on it than those do not benefit from it. I used white people because we are currently the largest benefactors of systemic oppression. If that "pushes you over the line" you were too close to line to begin with.
The meaning most people get from what you said is that you learned how white supremacists manipulate people decades ago, then disengaged. Again, in order to keep getting better, you have to keep learning, and for fucking sure chuds will keep trying to distract and minimize.