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submitted 1 year ago by dom@lemmy.ca to c/electriccars@lemmy.ca

Thoughts? I live in a wintery biome so having awd gives me a bit of peace of mind

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[-] dunidane 28 points 1 year ago

I think I agree with you. The author mentions AWD in snow as a minor passing thing in a way you can tell they haven't lived somewhere with it.

But that said I haven't driven an EV and I'd be worried about the extra direct torque they can provide making starting on ice or snowpack more difficult and dangerous.

[-] kiddblur@lemm.ee 24 points 1 year ago

I’ve owned two EVs, and that instant torque is much more of a pro than a con, even in the snow. Think about traction control: when the computer detects a loss of traction, it cuts power to the motor until it detects traction has been regained. In a gas powered car, you can really only change the flow of gas a couple times per second, because there’s some delay between applying throttle, waiting for ignition, etc. But in an EV, you can modulate the power upwards of a thousand times per second, and it gets applied to the wheels practically instantly. So when you slip in the snow, the traction control can react far faster.

My first EV was RWD and I would say that winter performance was comparable to my FWD sedans that I drove before, because the weight is distributed much more evenly, and that traction control is amazing.

My current EV is AWD and even on all season tires, it’s insane. Obviously no powertrain helps you stop if you don’t have snow tires, but for starting off in rough traction, it’s insane. Comparing my car to our Honda CRV, it’s wildly different. I can basically drive the car like there’s no snow on the ground (except I leave a massive gap in front in case I need to stop). The CRV slides all over the place

Sorry for rambling, I’m just a bit of an EV evangelist, and snow is somewhere that they really shine

[-] lps2@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago

My experience has been that on steep, snowy roads heavy EVs struggle. It could have been that they all had the wrong tires but going up Berthoud pass I've seen a handful of Tesla Ys and Xs doing their best Tokyo drift impressions trying to just get up the hill - virtually zero traction and sideways struggling to even stay moving much less staying in their lane

[-] Grimpen@lemmy.ca 3 points 1 year ago

I will say my FWD EV isn't as good in snow as my old AWD/4×4 Jeep, or even my old Ford Taurus. I do notice the extra weight in snow, and the centre of gravity is closer to the battery pack, not the "engine", at least middle not front. I think a RWD EV might be a little better.

Still, just drive to the conditions. I'm not going to cross the Coquihalla or the Malahat in winter conditions either.

[-] kiddblur@lemm.ee 2 points 1 year ago

Yeah, heavy cars definitely do worse in general, especially if they’re on shitty tires. I’d love to get snow tires but we only get two or three days a year where the weather is bad enough to justify them, and they’re too damn expensive, so we just stay home when the roads are bad

[-] Zeppo@sh.itjust.works 2 points 1 year ago

Weight is good on snowy roads in some circumstances, but not for going up hills.

[-] Rodeo@lemmy.ca 2 points 1 year ago

That's only half of what traction control is. The other half is applying the brake to the slipping wheel to divert power back through the differential to the stuck wheel. That braking control is electric, and while I don't think it operates with PWM, it can be applied many times per second.

[-] Pxtl@lemmy.ca 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Depends where you live with lots of snow. If you're not emergency personnel and you live in a major metropolitan area with good salting and plowing? You absolutely do not need AWD. If you're like in the GTA or the Chicago sprawl you'll be fine - make sure to pick up your groceries the day before the blizzard. Any day where the roads are bad-enough to need an all-terrain vehicle, everything will be closed anyways. The only urban places I'd be tempted by AWD would be the Prairies Provinces, where they sometimes get snow below -10C (usually it's bone dry here in Ontario when it gets below -10C) and salt can't melt that so they just dump in some grit and hope. At least it's pretty flat there.

However, if you live rural? Absolutely. My in-laws live in a hilly rural area and I've tried visiting them in an FWD minivan in the winter. Do not recommend.

[-] QuinceDaPence@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I've needed AWD in Houston in the summer to get up driveways because of a thin film of oil or some gravel.

And rural driveawys in hilly areas.

[-] ZC3rr0r@lemmy.ca 3 points 1 year ago

FYI: Winter driving modes on most EVs limit the amount of torque from launch to adjust for reduced grip on surfaces like snow and ice.

[-] shitescalates@midwest.social 2 points 1 year ago

I live in one of the snowiest states and have never had AWD. Never gotten stuck in 25+ years.

That said, my next EV will be AWD because I want the power and there is very little mileage penalty.

[-] FunderPants@lemmy.ca 23 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I've driven an EV for five years and made a 50km daily one way commute over rural, highway and city streets for 15 years. I live in Canada and we get snow , freezing rain and more weather. In my experience good driving habits > AWD all day everyday.

Pay attention to the road conditions, don't drive faster than the weather will allow, get winter tires, keep your brakes maintained, drive a safe speed even when others are impatient, leave room to stop, if the weather is bad enough don't leave at all, if you must leave plan to leave early enough that you aren't tempted to make bad driving decisions such as speeding. This isn't rocket science, but over the last 15 years and 540,000 km I have seen several impatient people pass me in the winter weather just to end up seeing them again in the ditch within 10 minutes. That includes 1 4x4 truck, 1 AWD SUV and at least 2 sedans.

The Bros in the truck all had to climb out the passenger side since it landed on its drivers side, the lady in the SUV was stuck down in the gutter and told me not to worry, she'd call a tow, and in the case of one sedan I ended up driving this small family home, car seat and all. Will AWD help you get yourself out of a slick parking spot, or start up at a red light? Sure, maybe, it depends. But it isn't really going to help with much else and doesn't come close to just learning to drive to the conditions.

[-] jargoggles@kbin.social 12 points 1 year ago

Adding to this, AWD gives people a false sense of security and often leads to riskier driving behavior. It's just like you said, there is absolutely no substitute for knowing how to handle difficult road conditions, anything that extends your confidence beyond your ability is dangerous.

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[-] Zeppo@sh.itjust.works 17 points 1 year ago

I'd think AWD is for traction, not 'the track'.

[-] ZC3rr0r@lemmy.ca 12 points 1 year ago

I've owned several FWD EVs in what I'd consider the wintery parts of BC (snowfall of 8+ meters anually) and the amount of times I got stuck as a result of not having AWD can be counted on one hand. Good driving habits and high-end winter tires are much, much more important than having AWD or not.

That said, the times I did get stuck were mostly a bit annoying if not embarassing (due to holding up traffic). Only once (while climbing a steep hill) did it actually get a bit sketchy due to backsliding, but that happened to every vehicle that had to come to a stop on that hill.

[-] OminousOrange@lemmy.ca 9 points 1 year ago

I'll take good tires over AWD any day in a Saskatchewan winter. It's interesting how influenced people have become to essentially the opposite of safety measures. AWD doesn't help you stop, and taller bigger vehicles aren't safer, they're much more likely to roll.

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[-] 0ops@lemm.ee 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

AWD is awesome. I love my subie. But don't delude yourself. In ski resort parking lots I've seen FWD shitboxes drive around stuck 4WD pickups because they just slammed the gas and their shitty tires couldn't make it up a hill. Good driving habits > good tires > all wheel drive. All three is awesome, but you should worry about winter driving in that order

[-] Leviathan@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago

I've seen FWD shitboxes drive around stuck 4WD pickups

This is me, I love driving in winter and I drive an old manual civic. Last winter I drove through the mountains between the Saguenay and the Malbaie (Quebec) during a couple of good blizzards. It's a winter wonderland. You have to be really good at driving when your car's basically belly on snow though and I can't tell you how many SUVs are constantly in ditches along the 170.

[-] dom@lemmy.ca 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Totally agree. But I'd rather have good driving habits, good tires, and awd than just the first two.

I dont buy the argument from others that being safer means you will drive less safely.

If I saw a study that showed a clear increase in preventable accidents in awd vehicles in winter, I would reconsider my position that awd is generally better than fwd

https://www.torquenews.com/1083/four-wheel-drive-and-all-wheel-drive-vehicles-found-be-safer-two-wheel-drive-vehicles-same-category

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[-] HappyMeatbag@beehaw.org 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

This article makes two points that I wish every driver was aware of.

No matter how fast you’d like to go (or how fast the manufacturer says you can go), there’s only so much power you can deploy safely (and legally) on public roads.

Yes. Spending thousands extra on an 800 hp monster is NOT worth it for the vast majority of car buyers.

All-wheel-drive is a significant reason buyers flock to dual-motor EVs. But AWD is overrated. It can help you start in the winter. But it doesn’t help you stop.

Inertia does not care if your car has two or four wheel drive. Stopping distance depends mostly on the mass of your vehicle, the condition of your brakes, and the road surface. The number of wheels connected to the engine doesn’t matter at all. It’s purely a physics problem, and physics doesn’t fuck around. Of course, you should still make the best choice for your needs… just be sure you understand what AWD can and cannot do.

[-] dom@lemmy.ca 14 points 1 year ago

Driving in snow is about more than just stopping power. I live in the country and driving through snow drifts can sometimes mean two wheels end up in ice conditions and two on dry pavement. Improved traction helps in this case as well.

[-] HappyMeatbag@beehaw.org 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Totally. That’s why I just edited my comment to include that “make the best choice for your needs” bit.

I live in New Jersey, so I have a some experience driving in snow, but not as much as you probably do.

[-] Kbin_space_program@kbin.social 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I saw an article on how Paris is going to add a punitive tax on SUVs and other overszied cars. Seems like an (edit: legitimately) great idea.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jul/11/paris-charge-suv-drivers-higher-parking-fees-tackle-auto-besity

[-] Zorque@kbin.social 4 points 1 year ago

I wonder if it only pertains to households under a certain income level, kind of like their ban on shorthaul flights.

Reading the article, its just higher parking fees. So yeah, just a poor people tax.

[-] HappyMeatbag@beehaw.org 1 points 1 year ago

For our non-expert English speakers, yes, the above comment is absolutely dripping with sarcasm.

[-] Kbin_space_program@kbin.social 2 points 1 year ago

No Sarcasm, I edited in a link

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[-] HappyMeatbag@beehaw.org 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Wow. It really does. If this actually happens, I’ll be delighted.

Edit: I’d like this to go into effect throughout France, rather than just being limited to Paris. Also, I hope the term “auto-besity” catches on.

[-] 1chemistdown@kbin.social 3 points 1 year ago

You forgot tires in that stopping equation. Do you live someplace with a lot of snow and ice? Get really good winter tires. Only get studded tires if your winters are constant snow and ice in the ground, and there are some very good studless winter tires: blizzak, X-ice, hakkapeliita etc. Good winter tires will decrease your stopping distance compared to all season.

[-] HappyMeatbag@beehaw.org 1 points 1 year ago

You’re right. I just realized a minute ago that I forgot to mention tires. Whoops! Well, the point is still valid, so I’ll leave it.

[-] Revan343@lemmy.ca 3 points 1 year ago

Stopping distance depends mostly on the mass of your vehicle, the condition of your brakes, and the road surface

And your tires, which are probably the most important factor in winter. Idiots buy AWD/4WD vehicles and then don't bother with winter tires because they think all wheel drive means all wheel stop. Spoiler: all cars are all wheel stop

[-] machin_shin@lemm.ee 5 points 1 year ago

I live in Minnesota. While AWD isn't a necessity, it is really great to have. My AWD ID.4 is amazing in the snow and ice. I didn't read great things about the RWD winter handling. The extra acceleration/speed is fun, but I bought AWD for winter driving

[-] Pxtl@lemmy.ca 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Like greater Minneapolis–Saint Paul area or rural? I live in Southern Ontario and while we get bad blizzards, the GTA has such good salting and plowing I never find I'm worried about traction. But I know it does get worse winter in Minnesota, particularly if you're in a rural area where there's less road maintenance.

[-] machin_shin@lemm.ee 2 points 1 year ago

Rural. And I could get by (and have for most of my life) without AWD, but it definitely makes a difference, and is not as this article suggests just for the extra power.

[-] bluGill@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago

Depending on where in Southern Ontario you live, there is a chance you live North of Minneapolis St Paul. There is also a good chance that the great lakes make your climate more mild as well.

Of course Ontario is big. If you go directly north from Minneapolis you end up in Ontario - but almost nobody lives in that part of Ontario.

[-] ThatBikeGuy@lemmy.ca 4 points 1 year ago

AWD helps, but knowing your vehicle and how it performs in the snow, will get you further than fancy devices. Now having the skills AND the fancy devices will take you almost anywhere.

when I was a kid, living on the prairies, the first winter I had my driver's licence I went out to this big huge and very empty parking lot and started off having fun doing doughnuts. but then I started getting a feel for how it responds when it's on the edge of control. and was practicing skid turns, regaining control etc. A RCMP car eventually came by, and just sat there for a min or two. I was thinking Uh oh.. but he flicked on his lights, and I came to a stop, he walked over and asked what I was doing. I guess I gave the correct answer "learning how to drive in the snow". He told me he got a "stunting complaint", but he could clearly see that I wasn't doing it entirely for thrills, or I would have been just burning those doughnuts. He gave me a few tips, on how to recover from a skid better, and told me to knock it off at that location but told me about another lot I could try and practice a bit more.

That interaction has literally saved my life a number of times, by giving me the skills early on how to recover when the vehicle is at the edge of control. I worked a career driving, never ended up in the ditch (touch wood) and have driven through the hairiest storms you can imagine.

Learn your vehicle, learn how to push it to the edge, and how to come back. (but do so in a safe place)

[-] JulesTheModest@sh.itjust.works 3 points 1 year ago

I'd guess better tires would help more than AWD. I owned a Suburu Legacy with stock tires and it wasn't too good in the snow. I have a Volt now (still stock tires) and it's scary in rain, so you have to watch your acceleration.

TLDR Invest in good tires

[-] dom@lemmy.ca 2 points 1 year ago

My approach is to do both

[-] ZC3rr0r@lemmy.ca 1 points 1 year ago

That TLDR applies to any vehicle in any condition. People tend to forget that there's four postcard sized patches of rubber connecting you to the surface below your car, and that no fancy technology is going to help you if those four postcard sized patches aren't able to properly grip the surface.

Getting good tires for the conditions you're driving in will make your car safer, faster, and handle better - 100% of the time. It's the biggest "bang for the buck" upgrade you can do to any car.

[-] HLB217@lemmy.ca 3 points 1 year ago

I live in south-west Ontario and drive a RWD sports car all year round.

There's nowhere I need to be that I can't get to in the winter with the right tires and attitude. I've also driven it across to New Brunswick 3 times now over Christmas and through some gnarly snowstorms.

As long as the snow's not building up on the road and bottoming me out, I'm good.

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this post was submitted on 25 Jul 2023
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