What I have to give to XMPP is that it's one of the easiest federated services to self-host. Running Prosody is super simple.
this post was submitted on 19 Jun 2023
49 points (100.0% liked)
Free and Open Source Software
22118 readers
29 users here now
If it's free and open source and it's also software, it can be discussed here. Subcommunity of Technology.
This community's icon was made by Aaron Schneider, under the CC-BY-NC-SA 4.0 license.
founded 3 years ago
MODERATORS
Prosody is amazing and I’m still astounded by how easy it is to get XMPP up and running. That’s great stuff!
When I lost my cell modem due to the 3g shutdown, I switched to xmpp for home automation for a while. I should probably set that up again...
It's well worth it.
How does this compare with matrix?
TL;DR: Matrix is good for text AND binary data (XMPP is text only) but XMPP is a bit more centralized than matrix, though both work based on federation principles. XMPP is more lightweight but supports more config options.
Thanks!
The real core difference is that XMPP just passes messages around (and history is just bolted on as an extra thingy between you and your server), while Matrix is literally a federated database of message history.
I’ve been self-hosting Matrix for years and it’s been amazing.
It's trivial to self host. I'm running a server on a small VPS for the family. Best part is they don't even know they are running XMPP, just installed Conversations and that was it.
I switched to iOS from android a while ago, but conversations was an AMAZING app and I wish there was something even half as good on iOS. That said… isn’t it the case that conversations is a paid app on Google play, and only free on fdroid? It’s totally worth the $2 or whatever it was on Google play, but I feel like it’s a hard sell for normal people who are used to free chat apps? Did you have any problems with that, or has the situation changed since I last looked?
Yes Conversations is still a paid app on Play Store. The F-Droid version also doesn't support Google cloud notifications so some message notifications will go missing occasionally. For Android there's also Quickly which is a Conversations fork and aTalk which works OK but reminds me of 90s Windows software. It's still quite usable though. Honestly Conversations is totally worth the money if only for the amount of effort gone into modernising the platform which also a testament to its extensibility.
Oh, I totally agree that conversations is worth the $4 or whatever. I just have a hard time convincing friends to switch over to a new chat application to talk to only me when it’s not even free for them, you know? And if it’s a less technical person getting them on fdroid is a tricky proposition too. I don’t begrudge conversations for charging, but I do think it would be easier to get people on XMPP otherwise.
There is also Cheogram (conversations fork), which is actively developed/tweaked by the jmp.chat folks - very nice. Also Snikket (conversations fork) that is themed and tweaked to use with a snikket server, but it happily works with other servers.
Another interesting tidbit. Chromebooks integrate the Android runtime to run play store apps. Windows 11 is also kinda/sorta shipping an Android runtime, but not by default. You can also spin up an Android runtime on Linux. I tested the snikket android app on Windows 11 and ChromeOS - works perfectly. So, I suspect all conversations forks can run across Android, Windows, ChromeOS, and Linux platforms - pretty neat. Doesn't solve the iOS gap and getting the runtimes going could use polish on Windows and Linux. And nothing against the other desktop apps in development, but the ability to essentially run the Android app against most major environments makes me want to contribute to that code base (if I had any ability to develop for android, that is).
Ah yeah, another fun fact is that Snikket on iOS is a rebranding of Siskin. On iOS Siskin seems to be the best option right now with the one caveat that push notifications won’t contain the content of OMEMO messages (I think the plan is to design and implement an encrypted push XEP?). Conversations is probably the best xmpp application out there, so I’ve been tempted to run it on Linux via the Android runtime in the past. These days I’m pretty happy with Dino.
I feel like we need something like converse.js on all platforms or something. Just something decent and consistent so you can recommend it to a friend on a different device and help them / understand their perspective, you know? I think converse.js has a desktop app via electron now, which seems like a start.
The standalone converse app was problematic when I tried it last. Also, there was a summer of code attempt at bringing jingle a/v sessions to converse, but it was never completed and nobody seems to have picked it up.
That’s a bit of a shame. I don’t personally find jingle that important, but it’d be great if it worked… Also OMEMO on converse is sort of in a weird state I think. AFAIK it still depends on a JS libsignal library that’s deprecated.
I had my own server and used it for a long time until Android decided that it knows better what background services I want to have running and thus killed the "instant" part of instant messaging.
Since then I'm on Signal and could at least convince most of my friends and family to move there.
load more comments
(1 replies)
I like XMPP and OTR is nice, but we need double-ratchet for secure communications and sync with multiple devices.
Omemo is double ratchet and my messages sync to multiple devices. New device can't read old messages sent before exchanging keys with the other clients.
I use it for pretty much all of my stuff, both as a message bus as well as a command-and-control mechanism for my bots.
load more comments
(2 replies)
We had an XMPP server at work but 90% of people wouldn't bother using it. As much as I dislike Teams it the only client that's ever been deployed in my company that everyone actually uses.
We used to use it at work and I loved it but then eventually got replaced by slack which I am not a fan of.
slack is the worst team communicate software ever existed. Everything
I see someone hasn't used Microsoft Teams.
Or hipchat
Hipchat is XMPP. I used to connect to it in Pidgin.
Hipchat was great before Atlassian sold it to slack
I wish I knew that when we used it. I was using their client and it wasnt great. Slack was a welcome change when we switched
Its not great, but its nowhere near half as bad as teams
load more comments
(1 replies)
We use Teams and friends at work, so I know the struggle.
I use it for OMEMO encrypted family messaging and image transfer (snikket). Very fast messaging, lightweight server, and the A/V works quite well. Biggest issue, imo, is the lack of a great iOS client - not a judgement on the developers, I think that's just the reality of developing on iOS. But an iOS client that works as seamlessly as Conversations would go a long way to regaining lost traction.
This is what I’ve been saying for years. Siskin is pretty good these days, but it’s still not perfect (push notifications with OMEMO have no content). It’s really hard to recommend XMPP to people when the iOS experience is kind of bad (with omemo, anyway).
load more comments
(2 replies)
It's great, problem is adoption with non tech people. You clearly had better luck with your friends and family than most. It's hard enough to get them to use something as standard as Signal.
I host my own XMPP server and I like it (super lightweight and easy to set up), but good god the people that work on XMPP stuff seem to not want it to take off at all. They all complain that everybody is using matrix for some mysterious reason and when you explain that you can’t in good conscience get your friends to switch to it because there aren’t really great iOS apps it’s just a hissy fit about how people should use android instead… which is just not very realistic. Really wish XMPP had a good cross platform client. The client situation is improving rapidly and OMEMO finally mostly works everywhere! But it’d be really nice if there was a consistent client between platforms.
That all sounds really critical, but I really do like XMPP and I really hope it gets better and gains more traction again! We really need good federated chat again, ideally just associated with an email address or something… because the current chat ecosystem is a mess!
Agree it's easier to get techies on board. With normal people it is kind of a struggle competing and argumenting against the likes of WhatsApp, FB messenger and such. But I totally think it's worth it because privacy.
IIRC Google Talk using XMPP and most major messengers having GTalk integration, they pretty much accidentally federated several messenger apps
They took out XMPP years ago. I had a lot of hope for the future when they first federated. Even ran my own server and was able to talk to Google Talk users. Alas...
load more comments
(4 replies)
My colleagues and I had set up a nice self-hosted XMPP server which everyone could use to chat in-house without any of the traffic leaving our network. We had it end-to-end encrypted and it was quick and easy. Then management (with the support of a few employees who like hype) switched us to Slack. It wasn't private, all our confidential messages went out to the internet, and many people didn't like it. Once management got frustrated wit it they switched us to Microsoft Teams. After using that for a year, I miss Slack. Teams is a bloated buggy mess with a UI designed to confuse and no privacy, and it also has all the disadvantages of Slack.
A few of us have secretly switched to Matrix and Element. It's good. Don't tell management.
load more comments
(11 replies)
view more: next ›