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Man they sure dont treat conspirators like they used to. Especially ones who destabilize government.
Not the death penalty's biggest fan, but I'll admit to a little bit of nostalgia on that particular point.
It gets tricky there doesn't it?
I am against the death penalty.
This person commited treason against a just government.
I agree with your reply, it still leaves me conflicted though.
The way I see it, treason DESERVES the death penalty, but it shouldn't ever be levied unless there is no other choice (ie a strong possibility of them being sprung, pardoned, or otherwise escape a life sentence by help of their fellow traitors).
Sometimes you don't give people what they deserve because of what it does to you, not because of what it does to them.
The death penalty (which I abhor) ideally would only be used for those who are too dangerous to be kept alive.
I think Napoleon's return is the best example of the consequences of not executing someone. He escaped from Elba and the wars started right back up, resulting in hundreds of thousands of military and civilian deaths in less than 4 months, only for him to be exiled again. If they'd executed him instead of sending him to Elba, the "hundred days" and the Waterloo campaign would never have happened.
Yeah, I think with dictators, cartel heads, and similarly “well connected” murderous figureheads the death penalty makes more sense. The line gets fuzzier when you get down to the level of like a cult leader - someone who maybe has connections but their power is probably insufficient to make escape likely.
With Napoleon specifically, they didn't want to set a precedent that leaders of defeated countries should be executed.
With Napoleon specifically, they didn’t want to set a precedent that ~~leaders of defeated countries~~ monarchs should be executed.
ftfy
your right, but also, you're right.
hear me out: napoleon couldn't help it. but he certainly didn't do it alone.
the fucks waiting for him to escape, the fucks who furnished him with an army and weapons etc., - those are the fucks who should hang.
enabling sedition should be right up there with sedition, especially when it's for personal profit.
Yes, but sometimes there's an iconic leader that a movement centers around, and while the machine they drive is made up of millions of others, that personality is key.
It's why Trump is so scary. Yeah, the GOP has been evil for decades. But the fascist shift of the past 9 years wasn't something they expected. The GOP lost control of their own party with Trump, and now they're as terrified of him as anyone, but unable to stop him. It's become a personality cult that is no longer connected with political stances.
Liz Cheney was a textbook examen of a far-right establishment Republican, and she was driven out of office and is now in legitimate danger of assassination by the Trump crowd despite holding the same political positions. All because she didn't bend the knee to Trump himself.
The GOP is also terrified at what comes after Trump. He's nearly 80 and is the entirety of their platform now.
Yeah, the GOP has been evil for decades. But the fascist shift of the past 9 years wasn’t something they expected.
kinda disagree with where you take this line of thought - they've certainly been evil for decades, at least since the southern strategy - fosho - but the fascist shift is something they've been building for a decade+ since they realized demographics were not going to keep white people a numerical majority.
So they began a long campaign of gerrymandering (too many examples to begin to describe), disenfranchisement (tens of thousands of black votes discarded in florida that would have elected Gore) and political horror (Willie Horton et al) - and now they're going to see it through with proj 2025.
I think this has been a longterm goal of the right for decades as they see no solution to being a minority except for minority rule.
Well said!
(I’d modify “deserves” somehow but agree killing should be reserved for when there is some imminent risk.)
Well, the next question would be, “what’s the alternative?” Is lifelong incarceration better?
That's the conflicted part. My brain said ' what do you do?' Kill them? Incarcerate for life? Neither are good options to me, I would hope for rehabilitation. At the same time I know that is not realistic in some cases.
There is this case in Japan currently. https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/jul/07/japan-death-row-iwao-hakamada-murder-retrial-verdict
At the time of this photo, I don’t know if an alternative would have been remotely feasible. It’s impossible to place judgement on historical actions with a modern moral lens. The idea of letting treasonous individuals live would have been untenable.
But as other posters have shown here in response to my comment, lifelong incarceration does seem to be the better option even if you’re looking at it purely from a policy and cost perspective. And rehabilitate is only possible if they’re not dead.
Good point! I think my biggest issue with this particular death penalty conviction was that it was through a military tribunal instead of civilian criminal court, and the defendants had inadequate legal representation. Even by the standards of the time period it was unjust.
Yes, lifelong incarceration is better. I’m sure there are cases where incarceration is less humane, but I’d argue that’s an issue with how we do incarceration and the death penalty isn’t the solution. Incarceration is certainly better for the moral and psychological well-being of the people carrying out the sentence. It’s better financially. It leaves open the possibility of correcting erroneous convictions. It leaves open the possibility of change, learning, redemption, and healing.
Now that has me feeling more conflicted.
We should have done that to the Jan 6th conspirators.
100% They are traitors.
🥱
I stared at this photo for far too long.
What's up with the umbrella?
It was a style for women at the time to carry an umbrella for shade.
Sure, but is it a woman waiting to be executed, that wanted to keep up appearances?
I looked it up and it would seem it is. I would've guessed one of the relatives of the conspirators, but it seems they allowed the conspirator Mary Surratt to keep an umbrella with her.
Wow! That is amazing! Also she was the fist woman in America to be hanged!
No, the first woman to be hanged by the US Federal Government.
The US had the death penalty since colonial times, so several were hanged well before 1865. This list has several examples. Most of these women were executed for ordinary crimes like murder or robbery, so not a federal offense like treason.
Interesting! I just read it on the linked wiki page.
Some absolutely heartbreaking cases on there by the way, for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celia_(slave)
People are fucked up.
Alexander Gardner's intimate involvement in the events following President Lincoln's assassination would have challenged even the most experienced twentieth-century photojournalist. In just short of four months, Gardner documented in hundreds of portraits and views one of the most complex national news stories in American history. The U.S. Secret Service provided Gardner unlimited access to individuals and places unavailable to any other photographer. Free to retain all but one of his negatives-a portrait of Booth's corpse-Gardner attempted to sell carte-de-visite and large-format prints of the whole picture story. America, still wounded from the four-year war, was less than interested.
The photographs of the execution of Mary Surratt, Lewis Paine, David Herold, and George Atzerodt on July 7, 1865, were, however, highly sought after by early collectors of Civil War ephemera beginning in the 1880s. This photograph shows the final preparations on the scaffolding in the yard of the Old Arsenal Prison. The day was extremely hot and a parasol shades Mary Surratt, seated at the far left of the stage. (She would become the first woman in America to be hanged.) Two soldiers stationed beneath the stage grasp the narrow beams that hold up the gallows trapdoors. The soldier on the left would later admit he had just vomited, from heat and tension. Only one noose is visible, slightly to the left of Surratt; the other three nooses moved during the exposure and are registered by the camera only as faint blurs. Members of the clergy crowd the stage and provide final counsel to the conspirators. A private audience of invited guests stands at the lower left. Minutes after Gardner's exposure, the conspirators were tied and blindfolded and the order was given to knock out the support beams.
“You’re invited!!” [kids’ birthday party style invitation]
Where can one piss on their graves?
Other than Jefferson Davis, who was let off scott-free.
And that's before we get into Johnson's "I'm the new Confederate President" behavior immediately after the assassination.
According to the film Mary's crime was that the conspirators used her boarding home to meet and create the plan without her knowledge. They hanged her as a conspirator with the others. Don't know how accurate the film was, but seems like she was hung just to help satisfy the nations need of a scape goat
Which film? The DDL Lincoln?
Why are there four soldiers on the bottom each holding a 2x6?
They're going to pull them out, which are holding up the trapdoor
That link PugJesus included in a comment says the soldier on the left admitted he had just thrown up from heat and tension.
Yeah, and I guess only two posts hold up the door. It must be one long trapdoor, almost the entire platform
Yeah, there’s an “after” photo on wikipedia. The whole front of the platform hinges down. Honestly seems pretty unsafe, I would have complained to OSHA.
True, there's a lot of people stomping around up there. No wonder the posts are bent
this post was submitted on 08 Jul 2024
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