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submitted 11 months ago by 8ace40@programming.dev to c/meta@programming.dev
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[-] Ategon@programming.dev 74 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

The instance is currently federated with every instance (including places like lemmygrad and explodingheads) as the current stance is defederation should be a last resort with users being able to choose what they want to see instead

Exploding heads has some very questionable content though so its status is currently being discussed by the admins

[-] elbarto777@lemmy.world 58 points 11 months ago

I wish there were a way to block entire instances per user.

[-] targetx@programming.dev 19 points 11 months ago

It is an option in Sync for Lemmy at least.

[-] awwwyissss@lemm.ee 11 points 11 months ago

Also Connect.

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[-] silas@programming.dev 10 points 11 months ago

This is actively being discussed too

[-] aport@programming.dev 4 points 11 months ago

This would make my life so much easier

[-] astral_avocado@programming.dev 4 points 11 months ago

Yeah it should be a per user decision..

[-] tastysnacks@programming.dev 10 points 11 months ago

Server runners should be able to make their own decisions too.

[-] FiskFisk33@startrek.website 15 points 11 months ago

this is not mutually exclusive

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[-] Shikadi@beehaw.org 26 points 11 months ago

Free speech absolutism is harmful. By remaining federated with them, you're participating in distributing their content and giving them a platform. People do have a choice of what they want to see, they can choose to be a part of another instance without morals. I would hope that a programming instance of all places would understand the consequences of propaganda given so many programmers work in data collection and targeted advertising. If you show an ad to 1000 people and one of them buys the product, the ad worked. It's no different for disinformation campaigns.

It's not like they're just sharing differing opinions or saying awful shit, they're taking things out of context or making things up (or posting articles that make things up) and it's very easy to prove if you do a tiny bit of googling. One article listed off a bunch of climate predictions that were wrong along with sources to look credible. If you checked the sources though, they were all wrong. Some of the predictions were actually made by humans (but not the claimed academic institutions) while others were straight up made up.

I hope the admins make the right decision here. Protecting free speech doesn't mean allowing people to say whatever they want on your platform. It means allowing them to say it on their platform without being fined or put in jail.

[-] Zalack@startrek.website 9 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

My experience has often been the opposite. Programmers will do a lot to avoid the ethical implications of their works being used maliciously and discussions of what responsibility we bear for how our work gets used and how much effort we should be obligated to make towards defending against malicious use.

It's why I kind of wish that "engineer" was a regulated title in America like it is in other countries, and getting certified as a programming engineer required some amount of training in programming ethics and standards.

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[-] Ategon@programming.dev 6 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Yeah, the goal is mainly to get everyone in the fediverse able to participate in the coding chats as long as they're respectful about it rather than being a free speech absolutism instance. An ideal scenario would be allowing users to participate in here while limiting the posts in their communities to not show up in things like the all feed if their instance is problematic

Decision should be pushed out soon, just making sure we get everything sorted out before we push anything and been a bit slower due to vacations

[-] Shikadi@beehaw.org 3 points 11 months ago

That's much more reasonable than I expected =D I'd argue they can make an account on another instance if they want to participate

[-] Ategon@programming.dev 5 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Yeah thats why defederation isn't as bad of a decision currently while things get coded. It ruins a bit of the fediverse mechanics though of only needing one account to interact with different sites which is why having them able to interact in the instance communities while their outside posts are hidden is ideal

The main sorts used in the instance are local new, local active, and subs which is what we are mainly optimizing for. Default sort when people make an account is local active which is a bit different from most other sites that default to all so it hasn't been as big of a problem for us as other instances but since we're growing more and more been working on some different guidelines for things like bots, federated instances, etc slowly on the side

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[-] 8ace40@programming.dev 18 points 11 months ago

I understand the reasoning but I think it's not the same situation as lemmygrad, which I feel is a normal instance with an ideological bent. Exploding heads is just violent propaganda. I hope you defederate.

What about hexbear? Is programming.dev federated with them? Or are they intentionally defederated with everyone?

[-] Ategon@programming.dev 5 points 11 months ago

hexbear split off and has been running their own fork for awhile separate from the rest of lemmy (so they couldnt federate with lemmy instances). They are coming back now though so lemmy instances will start to be able to interact with them soon

[-] 8ace40@programming.dev 3 points 11 months ago

Thanks for the info.

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[-] SuperFola@programming.dev 17 points 11 months ago

For those not aware of any drama, could you spill the beans?

[-] ImplyingImplications@lemmy.ca 44 points 11 months ago

Here's the front page of exploding-heads.com. It has a picture of a trans person hanging themselves with slurs I censored with an emoji since it's probably against the rules to post here

[-] apotheotic@beehaw.org 4 points 11 months ago

God, that is actively depressing. Why can't people leave us alone 😟

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[-] Shikadi@beehaw.org 26 points 11 months ago

There's a lot of disinformation and propaganda on it. They also used rammy.site to post exclusively harmful shit because it's unmoderated

[-] SuperFola@programming.dev 16 points 11 months ago

Thanks for the info

Definitely looks like a place you don't want to interact with

[-] Shikadi@beehaw.org 14 points 11 months ago

Np, I left my previous instance when I learned they don't defederate at all. Beehaw might take it too far, but I can't be part of a free speech absolutist group that doesn't understand the consequences of giving a platform to those types of campaigns

[-] nickwitha_k 5 points 11 months ago

Sad to see it. I'm still holding out hope that they'll do the responsible thing.

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[-] Owner_of_donky@exploding-heads.com 5 points 11 months ago

Dear programming.dev userbase,

Before downvoting me to hell please read this:

As you can see I'm an EH user and I really like to look around here. I don't comment as much but if I ever want to coment I would like to be able to.

RN the communities where "harmful and dangeorus propaganda" is being actively posted on are !freeorum@exploding-heads.com, !dankmems@exploding-heads.com and one more which I can't remember the name while writing this moment. If you don't want to look at them please block them or ask the admins to purge them.

Defederation is not a good option. The fediverse was not made to be defederated from.

I'm ready for conversations

[-] Ategon@programming.dev 11 points 11 months ago

The issue with purging them is it can devolve into whack a mole if more problem communities pop up (and they likely will considering the current communities are not being handled by the admins when things like drawings of people hanging themselves are posted) (Could also be whack a mole with instances but a community on an instance with 10 members can do a lot less than a community on an instance with 7k members)

The solution would be limiting the exploding heads instance so that posts don't show up but would still allow users there to participate in coding chats. Unfortunately though that functionality is not currently built into lemmy (and can't be coded into this instance for awhile) so the next best option is just defederating and users there having two accounts which would be the case on any other site

If we get more things coded into the site we can revisit what we decide later since we would have more options to manage it

[-] Owner_of_donky@exploding-heads.com 5 points 11 months ago

I would like if you just purge those communities or let users block them. The same way we are technically federated with lemmygrad but if you go to the "All" tab you won't see many posts from them.

As you've said a community with 10 members would do much less damage than a community with 7k members, we are an instance with less than 20 active users. We aren't doing too much damage and the "damage" we are doing could be mitigated pretty easy without defederation.

[-] Ategon@programming.dev 2 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

For anybody that stumbles upon this post, pushed out our decision on it and it was talked about in the august newsletter https://programming.dev/post/1671024

The exploding-heads communities that break our rules have been removed from the instance (and if you find any more in the future report a post that shows it breaking the rules and ill deal with it)

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this post was submitted on 11 Aug 2023
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