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submitted 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) by lwadmin@lemmy.world to c/lemmyworld@lemmy.world

Earlier, after review, we blocked and removed several communities that were providing assistance to access copyrighted/pirated material, which is currently not allowed per Rule #1 of our Code of Conduct. The communities that were removed due to this decision were:

We took this action to protect lemmy.world, lemmy.world's users, and lemmy.world staff as the material posted in those communities could be problematic for us, because of potential legal issues around copyrighted material and services that provide access to or assistance in obtaining it.

This decision is about liability and does not mean we are otherwise hostile to any of these communities or their users. As the Lemmyverse grows and instances get big, precautions may happen. We will keep monitoring the situation closely, and if in the future we deem it safe, we would gladly reallow these communities.

The discussions that have happened in various threads on Lemmy make it very clear that removing the communites before we announced our intent to remove them is not the level of transparency the community expects, and that as stewards of this community we need to be extremely transparent before we do this again in the future as well as make sure that we get feedback around what the planned changes are, because lemmy.world is yours as much as it is ours.

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[-] pankuleczkapl@lemmy.world 821 points 1 year ago

These communities are not even hosted on lemmy.world, this is an absurdly overreacted response. There were no signs of any legal trouble and I can't understand how lemmy.world specifically would be the target of such legal action. If you want to host an instance, you should do everything in your power to allow discussions on any topic, while in necessary cases disallowing direct posting/linking of illegal content. Instead, you chose to block a community that has long been known to avoid having any trouble with the moderators.

[-] TurboLag@lemmings.world 397 points 1 year ago

And on top of this, the removals were done following the request from a troll account, by a user involved in far more questionable discussions than the legal discussions currently going on in the now-removed communities. Should no attempt be made to differentiate between a legit legal concern and trolling?

[-] OverfedRaccoon@lemm.ee 209 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Good ol' Bungiefan_ak, creating troll accounts on any instance that'll have them to troll all things piracy and post transphobic and hateful shit wherever they go.

[-] brad@toad.work 122 points 1 year ago

dude is such a piece of shit

[-] TurboLag@lemmings.world 70 points 1 year ago

They only do it because it works. Had they been given the level of attention—and interaction—that trolls deserve, they would quickly move on to doing other things with their life. But as long as one single well-placed comment can result in so many people getting annoyed from so many different perspectives, it's easy to see the appeal that these trolls see...

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[-] majere@lemmy.world 89 points 1 year ago

The great thing is, now you're 100% empowered to move forward and host the responsibility yourself. Demanding volunteers shoulder potential liability (when you yourself admit you can't understand how there's any in the first place) is juvenile.

The moment a volunteer is hit with a DMCA notice or any threat of legal action, you think they have any interest in going through the court system? You can do it first.

[-] pankuleczkapl@lemmy.world 66 points 1 year ago

I think you don't understand what a DMCA notice actually is. The whole point of it is to give you a chance to remove offending content. The "threat" of legal action won't actually result in anything, provided you comply, and that is exactly why I do not understand the preemptive actions, when there is basically no such thing as immediate legal threat in case of DMCA notices. The copyright holders often do not want to go through the court system either and will gladly accept pre-legal-action compliance.

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[-] lwadmin@lemmy.world 86 points 1 year ago

Doesn't matter if they are hosted here or not. The way federation works is that threads on different instances are cached locally.

We have NO issues with the people at db0 - we are just looking out for ourselves in a 'better safe than sorry' fashion while we find out more. As mentioned in the OP we would like to unblock as soon as we know we can not get in any legal trouble.

[-] ComfortablyGlum@sh.itjust.works 77 points 1 year ago

"we are just looking out for ourselves in a 'better safe than sorry' fashion while we find out more."

This is an unfortunate aspect of individuals/small groups housing the fediverse vs big companies. Big companies have lawyers and the capital to back them, individuals do not.

If I was in your shoes, I'd do the same thing. I appreciate your wish for thus to be temporary. I hope you will share your findings once you come to a final decision; information like this is relevant to all those managing servers.

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[-] kiwifoxtrot@lemmy.world 52 points 1 year ago

The content is hosted on lemmy.world - that's how the fediverse works. Each instance pushes updates to other instances and they host it locally for their users. The issue is that the admins here can't moderate a community not on their instance. So if an instance is located somewhere it is legal, it might not be legal at the location of another instance.

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[-] gabe@literature.cafe 366 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Please make announcements on lemmy instead of exclusively on discord moving forward. That is the biggest issue here, the lack of public transparency. Such a decision affects all instances, not just lemmy.world and making it publicly known is important

[-] lwadmin@lemmy.world 127 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

This was a misunderstanding from one of the team members. It has since been discussed and will not happen again. Lemmy.World and this announcement community is our primary platform,

[-] gabe@literature.cafe 47 points 1 year ago

Thank you. It is appreciated.

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[-] joe@lemmy.world 244 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Uh, @lwadmin@lemmy.world .. what's up with the banning going on in this thread? I noticed on a.lemmy.org that someone was labeled "banned" and their comment was simply "Ight, I’m out"

The mod note was "Let us help you".

There are more similarly weak (spiteful?) bans that certainly don't seem to be at a standard for a ban. "Litterally 1984" was another one. Is that all it takes to be banned here?

Edit: Many (all?) the users I referenced as banned are now unbanned from the site, but now banned from this community.

[-] gabe@literature.cafe 120 points 1 year ago

The "ight I'm out" ban note was.... hm. Not a great look. Comes across as petty and vindictive.

[-] joe@lemmy.world 176 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

There are worse, imo.

user @snake posted:

Did you ever consider ceding ownership of the instance to an entity with greater legal capabilities?

In the end, it will not make sense to try to keep this instance running if the owners are unable to provide adequate service to its users.

and was banned for:

reason: Go get your service somewhere else

Definitely not a great look.

[-] gabe@literature.cafe 141 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Lemmy.world admins, I am truly asking you to please reflect on how bad this looks. It honestly makes you seem like you can't handle criticism and if people get that vibe they will use it to absolutely fuck with you. I know from my own personal experience. I understand that you're volunteers but this is a step in a very bad direction that will only serve to cause more issues.

[-] foggy@lemmy.world 69 points 1 year ago

Agree.

This decisions seems emotionally driven. That will not work on the internet.

You created rules. Use your rules to make your decisions. Don't use your emotions.

It won't only bring the site into disarray, it will bring you moderators and your emotional states into disarray.

Make your rules as black and white as poasible. where grayness raises, create new rules.

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[-] ricdeh@lemmy.world 52 points 1 year ago

I hope that this demonstrates to people that the oppressive reddit behaviour is not confined to special individuals (such running major social media sites), but is a systematic occurance in online forums. Simply switching from one toxically moderated space to another is not a solution. But this is where the strength of ActivityPub/fediverse lies: we are able to leave for another server while still using the same fundamental service and being able to interact with the same content as before. I would recommend startrek.website as a new or second home for those who wish to migrate.

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[-] DharkStare@lemmy.world 167 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Reading all these comments it's clear that a lot of people have unrealistic ideas regarding what Lemmy and the Fediverse are supposed to be (or maybe it's me with weird ideas).

The Fediverse is just a bunch of apps that can all communicate with each other through a shared protocol. There is no requirement for them to be free speech platforms or host everything. The whole purpose of defederation supports the idea that instances are free to associate or disassociate with whichever instances they want. Furthermore, nearly every guide I read on joining Lemmy state that you should choose instances to join based on shared ideals/beliefs.

For everyone saying "I'm leaving lemmy.world" I say "Good. That's what you're supposed to do." When the instance you join no longer aligns with what you want, you go to another instance and then you'll be back to viewing all the communities you want to see. That is what the Fediverse is all about and how it's designed.

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[-] zikk_transport2@lemmy.world 130 points 1 year ago

What part is illegal? Are they sharing files on that instance and your instance re-hosts it?

From my understanding, discussions are legal, guides are legal, tips are legal, but actual files (aka "copyrighted content") is illegal. There are no files shared there, links at maximum, but institutions should be after those content-sharing websites, not forums.

I am against this decision and I am happy that I am not part of admins team.

[-] Tarquinn2049@lemmy.world 57 points 1 year ago

Keep in mind, The Pirate Bay is "technically" not breaking any laws... how has that been going for them? You don't have to break laws to get in trouble if you are pissing off rich people. They'll find something, anything, to nail you on. It's totally ok for random normal people to not want to be "heroes" to a bunch of other random people they don't know. Heroes attract villains, and instability. And while it's just starting to get off the ground, lemmy doesn't need villains or instability.

Let the smaller, less visible servers do the shady but "totally technically legal" stuff. Big servers with big targets on their forehead need to be stable and drama-free.

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[-] Jackthelad@lemmy.world 116 points 1 year ago

And still people are crying about this.

You can literally change to another instance. That's the entire point of the Fediverse. If you don't like a decision the admin has taken, you can move elsewhere.

The entitlement of some people these days is ridiculous.

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[-] Squizzy@lemmy.world 108 points 1 year ago

Surely there is a discussion to be had around what is and isn't allowed, there are plenty of subreddits discussing piracy without dolirect links that are playing within the rules.

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[-] xaon_rider92@lemmy.world 95 points 1 year ago

The fact that there was no announcement before the banning of the communities is not great, but good on you for acknowledging that mistake.

It's unfortunate that this action had to be done, but it's also understandable. It's not about what's right or wrong, and it's not even about whether there actually is any illegal content in these communities. It's about the fact that the Big Entertainment Companies don't care about the difference and see it ALL as bad, irregardless of whether it actually is illegal or not. If the admin team had a legal team and the financial security to fight back, then it wouldn't be as much of an issue. But they're not, they're just a bunch of regular folks, so they're being cautious and trying to pre-emptively prevent these problems from coming up, especially as Lemmy continues to grow every day.

The beauty of the Fediverse is that you can always switch instances or make an alt account.

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[-] crag@lemmy.world 91 points 1 year ago

Oh no. Wtf. Do you know what's funny? I actually joined this instance from piracy subreddit.

I guess it's time to leave.

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[-] GONADS125@lemmy.world 91 points 1 year ago

While I'm not ethically opposed pirating, I understand and would probably do the same for a server I was hosting. Anybody remember Kim Dotcom's mansion raid?

What I do not understand is blocking a community surrounding magic mushrooms.. No one is going to prosecute the L.W admins for people discussing shrooms/their use...

Substances are legal/illegal depending on where one lives, just like weed which is apparently perfectly fine to post here, even tho possession is a death sentence in some countries.

It simply doesn't logically follow that weed, or even alcohol communities are permissible while a shroom community is not.

Banning any content deemed illegal in any country in the world establishes a very dangerous precedence (if that's the justification here). Free speech/dissenting from the government is illegal in many places in the world.

One thing the community must remember tho, is that you have to operate your server in accordance with the law in which country you're hosting it (in this case Germany).

I'll gladly admit I'm not too familiar with German law, but it seems unreasonable to expect government persecution for hosting servers which hosts a shroom discussion community.

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[-] nexguy@lemmy.world 79 points 1 year ago

I don't understand why people are upset even a little about this. This is a prefect advert for the fediverse. If you are not completely happy with an instance(which can never realistically happen) then you just host your own or have multiple accounts. Apps have this built in and easily accessible. Why do people want to concentrate everything they want into one instance? What if that instance goes down? This should not be hated or applauded.... just ignored as the way the fediverse should work. Don't get too attached to any single instance.

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[-] thecam@lemmy.world 78 points 1 year ago

Thanks for only banning the communities and not the entire instance as a whole. That is a much healthier approach to deferation.

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[-] Odo@lemm.ee 75 points 1 year ago

Lovely this happened because someone complained after being banned from the piracy instance for being a transphobic asshole.

[-] OverfedRaccoon@lemm.ee 55 points 1 year ago

Not sure why people are downvoting you, since that's exactly what happened. It's Bungiefan_ak, a troll that admins are playing wackamole with, as the person keeps appearing on new instances and pulling the same shit.

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[-] derf82@lemmy.world 73 points 1 year ago

The people whining are not the people that could face multimillion-dollar lawsuits over the issue. Like it or not, media companies are powerful and will go after websites seen as promoting piracy. Do what you reasonably have to do.

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[-] soviettaters@lemmy.world 69 points 1 year ago
[-] mp3@lemmy.ca 87 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

From the modlog

Banned @soviettaters@lemmy.world
reason: Let us help you

That is petty and thin-skinned af lmao

EDIT 1: Account has been unbanned sitewide

EDIT 2: Banned from !lemmyworld@lemmy.world instead, for "trolling" \_(ツ)_/¯

At least there is a public modlog for accountability on Lemmy

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[-] madcaesar@lemmy.world 57 points 1 year ago

Even if we look past the issue that all of this was in response to a 10h troll account, there was no cease and desist, no threat of a lawsuit, nothing credible AT ALL.

Let's ignore all of that and say there was, it still means this instance is completely ill equipped to provide any sort of resistance, to something trivial.

It's like it's hosted in the middle of Illinois, by John Frank, at 3125 maple lane... Zero layers of protection.

That is awful and means no meaningful discussion can ever happen here. Nevermind piracy, what if people want to criticize the government? Or public figures?

If this instance can't fight a fake troll it can't fight and protect anything.

Which means we need to pool resources and fund instances that can and will fight back.

And yes that means fundraising to build up a defense fund and hosting outside the US etc.

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[-] M0oP0o@lemmy.world 54 points 1 year ago

I think a this is a bigger issue then just .worlds stance on piracy. Lemmy.world has put it self forward as the "front page of lemmy" but has now also removed one of the largest community using lemmy. And did so with no input on a discord server (not on any instance). This front page status was already shakey with all the down time and clunk. This seems like maybe not the best side to show new users.

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[-] LucidDaemon@lemmy.world 51 points 1 year ago

Time to host my own instance. I disagree with this move.

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[-] Kuro@lemmy.world 49 points 1 year ago
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[-] Boiglenoight@lemmy.world 49 points 1 year ago

"Alright let's all be adults about th--"

reads comments

¯_(ツ)_/¯

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[-] vsp@lemmy.world 48 points 1 year ago

It's a tough decision.

There's a target on the collective back of Lemmy, its developers and this instance. Rooting out these issues early is part of it. One of my first recommendations to @ruud@lemmy.world was to start putting aside contribution dollars from donors for a legal fund to manage liabilities like this. This decision is just solid management and avoiding issues well ahead of time.

I wish the admins well. And for those who have had their communities 'snipped' from being connected to Lemmy.world, I hear you. It's hard when you have built a connection and a sense of self on a platform, and then it becomes severed. That's hard.

[-] Touching_Grass@lemmy.world 47 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

You're not allowed to discuss piracy. You wouldn't talk about stealing a car would you?

Delete this.

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[-] WolfyGamer29@lemmy.world 47 points 1 year ago

Y'all realize that saying things like "You've just lost a user!" or "Deleting my account!" or "This is now the worst instance on Lemmy!"... you sound like a Karen telling the kid at the register in CVS that she's leaving a bad Yelp review... right? Y'all seeing this? Am I going crazy here?

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[-] harry_assman@lemmy.world 45 points 1 year ago

QQ: Have there been other communities removed and was it communicated?

I have just realized that c/Shrooms has been banned too, but I cannot find a statement regarding this particular ban.

Are or will there be more bans? I am not asking to complain about it or make remarks about which the decision is correct to me or not, but rather point out the lack of communication or unfortunate communication.

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this post was submitted on 15 Aug 2023
-968 points (33.0% liked)

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