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The Anti-NSFW measures have gone a bit far... (kbin.social)

submitted 1 year ago by ShadowRunner@kbin.social to c/kbinMeta@kbin.social

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So let me start off by saying that I recognize that there was initially a genuine problem with people who didn't want NSFW content being exposed to it.

Some of this was due to the fact that not all content was being correctly flagged as NSFW, and some of it was because a lot of users didn't realize that individual users can choose to completely block an entire instance - which is not only a very easy and fast solution, but also does not require an all-or-nothing approach of defederating from NSFW instances.

A number of changes were made, but some of those lingering changes have meant that people who do want to see NSFW content are not because:

Even having subscribed to several NSFW subs, they are effectively completely missing from my feed.
Most NSFW thumbnails are blurred.

Both of these behaviors should not be occurring if a user has chosen in their settings to NOT hide NSFW content.

However, I will also say that the blurred state is something that deserves its own user setting (i.e. so that a user can choose to NOT hide NSFW, but still want them blurred or not) - preferably with the granularity to set it for various sub-types of NSFW (e.g. porn, gore, etc...).

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[-] Hillock@kbin.social 45 points 1 year ago

I don't think it went too far. Not exposing people accidentally to NSFW content takes priority over giving people a better experience consuming NSFW content. If you want to consume NSFW content head over to an instance that focuses on NSFW content. For example, lemmynsfw.com will fulfill all your NSFW needs.

That's the advantage of the fediverse, you can have different instances focusing on different types of content. And having the main sites of kbin.social or lemmy.world focus on Non-NSFW content will make the entire fediverse easier to advertise to the public.

[-] dedale@kbin.social 48 points 1 year ago

Should be user's choice. Have it enabled by default, but with a possibility to turn it off.

[-] Kichae@kbin.social 29 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Nope. Content is mirrored and hosted locally, so it's the admin's choice and responsibility.

Moreover, listening to choruses of "individual choice" are how you end up providing a server for people who feel no responsibility to their neighbours and communities. Structural issues require more than "Fuck you, I can do what I want."

You can choose to use a different instsnce if you don't like what the admin's doing. Or you can start your own. That's how you can do what you want.

Edit: I do love the downvotes from the "I can do what to want" crowd, knowing that they're also the "my property, my rules" crowd. Except when they're the ones using someone else's shit, of course.

It's not a coherent ideology.

[-] dedale@kbin.social 34 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I don't get your reasoning. There's no downside to letting users choose.

And I find the 'love it or leave it' approach distasteful.
I generally like what the admin is doing, in large part because he listens to user feedback, which I was providing.
Of course you're entitled to your opinion.

edit: wait it does makes sense in a way to avoid hosting illegal content, if the instance doesn't have the manpower to moderate effectively. nevermind. still think those issues should be discussed collectively.

[-] Daydreamy@beehaw.org 3 points 1 year ago

You should become accustomed to having multiple accounts, ones for different instances, because this is the fediverse and essentially just semi-interlinked forums. If you want forum specific content that is generally considered spicy, go to that forum directly rather than complain that every other forum not handle your need for spicy content in an effective way for all parties.

This isnt some faceless megacorp. You are so used to one source for all your content due to reddit, but you should not expect one instance to provide you with all your desired content. Can you imagine how many man hours need to be put into effectively handling spicy content, across all instances? Or, you can just go to the spicy content forums.

Yes, there is a need for better handling multiple accounts seamlessly, its definitely under development in several apps. In the meantime it's just something to deal with.

[-] dedale@kbin.social 11 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Personally I'm very happy with no porn and gore. But I think loss of user agency is what made internet the hell it is now, and alternatives should keep it in mind.
Peertube does have some basic granularity: allow sensitive content or not, blur sensitive thumbnails or not.
It's work no doubt, but I doubt it's the Herculean task some make it out to be.
In the end it's for Ernest to decide, I see no problem in making suggestions one way the other. And I don't understand why you would.

For what it's worth, I haven't browsed reddit in years except for specific technical stuff, you may be assuming a little bit too much based on a single comment.

edit: thinking about it a little more, one case where I'd advocate banning sensitive content entirely is if it is used as a vector of attack against the instance, by posting illegal, or repulsive content to drive traffic away.

[-] gme@bofh.social 9 points 1 year ago

@dedale@kbin.social @Daydreamy@beehaw.org @ShadowRunner@kbin.social @Hillock@kbin.social @Kichae@kbin.social

The Internet wouldn't be what it is today were it not for porn.

Porn gave us VHS.

Porn gave us Laser Discs.

Porn gave us DVDs.

Porn gave us BluRay.

Porn gave us the Internet.

Porn gave us Internet Video.

Porn gave us Streaming Video.

Porn gave us Usenet.

Porn gave us IRC.

Porn gave us Reddit.

Porn gave us the Fediverse.

Where there is technology, there is porn.

[-] ShadowRunner@kbin.social 5 points 1 year ago

If you want forum specific content that is generally considered spicy, go to that forum directly rather than complain that every other forum not handle your need for spicy content in an effective way for all parties.

This has nothing to do with complaining about how other forums handle this.

This is about how kbin handles it, and kbin is designed to incorporate multiple forums from multiple instances. In other words, we're talking about how kbin should be able to do what it's designed to do even better.

[-] bitwise@kbin.social 2 points 1 year ago

The downside is investing tons of time making and testing code that ultimately accomplishes nothing that wouldn't also be achieved by making your own instance.

[-] dedale@kbin.social 12 points 1 year ago

Except here it's not about writing a new functionality as much as getting the UI to do what it says it does.

[-] 0x1C3B00DA@kbin.social 8 points 1 year ago

I downvoted you because I think your argument is off the mark, not because I'm an "individual choice" or "I can do what I want" nutjob. I believe is strong moderation.

listening to choruses of "individual choice" are how you end up providing a server for people who feel no responsibility to their neighbours and communities

Allowing a setting to not blur photos will not destory communities. It seems like most people in this thread who would like a setting for this agree that blurring NSFW photos should be the default because that is what is best for the community. Asking for a setting to suit their own tastes is perfectly reasonable. Even within a community, people can have individual needs or tastes and they should be accommodated when reasonable.

You can choose to use a different instsnce if you don't like what the admin's doing

They're not asking that all NSFW photos be shown for everybody. They're asking that they be allowed to customize their own experience without affecting anybody else. Telling them to fuck off is pretty exclusive and non-community oriented behavior.

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[-] Adlantor@kbin.social 39 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

If your solution is to go to a different website instead of subscribing from here and having it served to me here, then what is the point of federation? (Just to clarify I totally understand why people wouldn’t want to be served nsfw when they didn’t opt into it and I don’t mind a bit of an overcorrection for the meantime. I know kbin blew up fast and this can be an expected growing pain that will eventually be worked out)

[-] Hillock@kbin.social 23 points 1 year ago

That's the entire point of the fediverse, if you don't like how content is served to you in one instance, you move to another instance. I am not heading over to lemmynsfw.com and complaining about how consuming SFW content is difficult over there either. You can still consume either content on either platform if you want to but having the two main instances, which currently are kbin.social and lemmy.world, focus on SFW content and neglecting NSFW content makes perfect sense.

Many people are going to use kbin in public and then not having NSFW content pop up on accident is super important. And while user customization is always a nice thing to have, I can totally understand that the devs of kbin currently have other priorities. And so taking the more drastic approach is perfectly fine.

[-] Adlantor@kbin.social 5 points 1 year ago

(Assuming this bug is fixed and people are properly marking nsfw) Then they should opt out of showing nsfw so it doesn’t show up for them instead of preventing me from getting it served to me here where I have opted in. I would like the ability to organically find communities as they show up on All instead of specifically searching

[-] ShadowRunner@kbin.social 2 points 1 year ago

You have no right to say that the way you, personnally, use kbin is to be forced on everyone else.

Different people have different preferences. Kbin is perfectly capable of addressing both major branches on this issue, so it doesn't make sense to throw away one entire side just because you prefer the other.

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[-] parrot-party@kbin.social 3 points 1 year ago

Federation doesn't mean everything. Each server is allowed to choose how they want to federate, who they want to federate with, and what features they want to support for their users. The entire point is to make it easier to migrate servers, not that servers are discouraged from running how they want.

If you want nsfw primarily, then join a server that values that. They will choose to federate with other nsfw servers. They will choose to include better features for nsfw content. Complaining about the lack of nsfw features here is like complaining about the lack of English federation on a French server.

You aren't paying for anything here. You don't get to dictate how a server is run nor what the developers focus on as far as features. Disagreement is fine but the power you hold is the ability to change servers.

[-] Adlantor@kbin.social 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

To my knowledge, currently kbin.social federates with all instances. Therefore on this instance kbin.social, where I have opted in to nsfw, I would like nsfw to organically show up on my All. If it isn’t showing up because no one is making any then that is fine, if it is being made and isn’t showing up despite me having opted in that is not fine and I will patiently wait until it is fixed. And just for the record, I have and would encourage everyone else to buy Ernest a coffee https://www.buymeacoffee.com/kbin

[-] parrot-party@kbin.social 3 points 1 year ago

I've bought a coffee as well.

As to federation, no Kbin hasn't really taken any stances yet, but that doesn't mean they won't in the future. But feature wise, Kbin is so new that nsfw specific features could be a long way off. I doubt even @ernest knows as I'm sure his life has been thrown a real curveball this month. If we're still here in a couple years and there's no extra nsfw features, then it's reasonable to ask what's up. Right now though? There's so many missing features that you couldn't realistically even list them all.

[-] ernest@kbin.social 12 points 1 year ago

Hey, thanks :) Yes, that is a known issue. First, I need to address the moderation tools and sensitive content issue for sure. I'm actually working on it right now. But there are so many exciting new things from contributors right now that it's not easy ;)

The most important thing is that we have 331 issues recorded. Now it's just a matter of time :D
https://codeberg.org/Kbin/kbin-core/issues

[-] ShadowRunner@kbin.social 6 points 1 year ago

Hi, ernest!

If this is a known issue that you intend to address, and it's just a matter of priorities, then I'm happy.

Everyone appreciates all the work you've been doing, and I hope you're getting help to ease your burdens.

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[-] PabloDiscobar@kbin.social 13 points 1 year ago

I really don't understand why they don't just join a NSFW instance and be done with it. That's exactly the point of an instance: focusing on meta interests. On top of that those instances are already up and running. It's not as if they had to do it from scratch.

Why would you inflict this on people who don't want it? There is an adoption risk, there is a legal risk...It's not worth it! Why would we take the risk of being defederated by big federations or big names just so a bunch of you can spread more NSFW?

There is a toggle dedicated for it, which means it's a point of contention. Go to a safe space, to an instance where there is no contention. Use the fediverse.

[-] young_broccoli@kbin.social 11 points 1 year ago

I was told that the advantage of the fediverse was that I could browse and interact with the entirety of the fediverse from one instance and one account. I dont need nor want to be "protected" from what is considered "harmfull" by a bunch of people making decisions in my name at any given moment.

Now, I understand that controll over federation is one of the advantages of the fediverse, just not the one I am looking for. Is there a kbin instance with an ethos focused on "user choice" when it comes to defederating?
Better to switch now than later when Im more attached to this instance.

[-] Dups@sh.itjust.works 29 points 1 year ago

Yeah I would like to not hide NSFW content but I would also like to blur it by default.

[-] ShadowRunner@kbin.social 34 points 1 year ago

And if it's a user setting, which is my preference, then everyone can decide for themselves whether or not it's enabled.

[-] sethw@kbin.social 26 points 1 year ago

On most platforms the problem with nsfw is that it upsets advertisers. If we dont have to appease them, what is the problem here? I dont think we should automatically validate a puritanical approach here.

[-] NotTheOnlyGamer@kbin.social 7 points 1 year ago

It's not just advertisers. It's also the payment processing companies, the bible-thumping firebrands, etc. Plus, there's laws to consider. If every NSFW pic isn't positively identified as being of a legal adult who is legally competent and legally licensed to share that content, then you have to assume that it's all minors and revenge. If you aren't legally verifying that every possible user or viewer who can see that comment is also a legal adult, you must assume that your content is being displayed to children. When you have those assumptions in mind (which are also the government's assumptions btw), you absolutely can't have that on your server or your user's computers. If there's any hope of this getting to a point of profit without fully deanonymizing every poster and every user, porn is poison.

[-] PugJesus@kbin.social 5 points 1 year ago

Personally, I think NSFW stuff is an important part of a community, but I also recognize that allowing a community to be overrun with NSFW stuff usually makes it into a NSFW community, not simply a community that allows NSFW stuff. Blurred thumbnails seem to me a good compromise.

[-] ShadowRunner@kbin.social 8 points 1 year ago

There is no reason why blurred thumbnails can't easily be made into a user-selectable feature. That makes everyone happy.

[-] SCmSTR@kbin.social 17 points 1 year ago

The correct way is to have an nsfw flag on magazines and as a flag standard on all fediverse post metadata, not suggest the magazines on all, let people make whatever they want, make sure it's marked nsfw if it is nsfw, and have true/false checkbox settings in client app and linked to home-instance profile settings: show nsfw posts on all, show nsfw posts on subscribed, blur nsfw pictures on all, blur on all, blur on subscribed, blur everywhere. Then you need to have per instance content configs that default to all disabled that you could enable if you want to control for specific instances. And if you aren't logged in, blur everything by default and probably hide nsfw posts everywhere by default.

Really it's not that hard. I could draw up model schemas and wireframes if you have no idea what I'm talking about or what to build. Probably have to see what it is currently first though if you want it compatible or conventionally the same.

It should all be default hide if not logged in, and have it all be logged in client settings saved on the home instance that the client account is on, mirrored and synced to client apps.

Apps should be number one priority for this stuff, with existing for profit platform replacement instance framework/apps coming soon, ideally there could be universal fediverse apps that integrate modules of specific ux for different types of fediverse apps (mastodon vs kbin) so that it all makes sense. Then, just have tabs within the universal app that even just containerize existing apps but passthrough data. I don't know what this stuff is on, kotlin, java, rust, whatever, i just wanna search for an instance and then search for content on that instance. Load instances the same way you join discord servers. Hell, just make a discord-like server app that people can run, have auth and whitelist but is federated, and people can closet host their own low-bandwidth "fedDIScORD" server instance that uses fediverse accounts and chatlogs and hosts whatever quality voip you want.

[-] Saturdaycat@kbin.social 14 points 1 year ago

I will say I'm very happy with the changes. Not more than once I was jump scared by a big anime shlong on a girl while browsing on my commute. Glad that whatever has changed that it's much more functional now

[-] Osvaldoilustrador@kbin.social 4 points 1 year ago

so true lmao

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[-] PugJesus@kbin.social 9 points 1 year ago

Is the NSFW thumbnails being blurred really a big problem? I think you can mouse over them without clicking and they reveal.

[-] ShadowRunner@kbin.social 21 points 1 year ago

It is if you want the ability to scan down the page and decide what links you're interested in by using the thumbnail.

If you are interested in text posts, it makes sense to scan the titles. If you are interested in images, it makes sense to scan the thumbnails.

Having them blurred adds extra work and is an extra annoyance - and since there is an individual user-level setting for whether or not you want to see NSFW content, it makes no sense to mandate the blurring.

[-] 1Fuji2Taka3Nasubi@kbin.social 15 points 1 year ago

Also, mouseover is not an easily doable action on mobile / touch-based interfaces.

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[-] parrot-party@kbin.social 5 points 1 year ago

I'm sure @ernest will add your porn features. He's the moderator of several porn subs here. But you need to relax dude. This server went from nothing to exploding in a week. There's one developer and he does this as a side gig. Maybe he'll pivot to full time now but it'll take a bit. It you can't wait, other servers have been built with more porn features. Just use one of those, or use both. But overall, calm your expectations.

[-] Nepenthe@kbin.social 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Tbf, currently it's a bug that any non-kbin community we're federated to lists him as the mod automatically. So I wouldn't assume he's a horndog from that.

Otherwise my image of him would be as a WoW-playing nurse who moonlights as a radiologist, lives in a van, has four concurrent personality disorders, gambling/sobriety issues, and a raging anal prolapse, whose hobbies were aquariums, woodworking, every sports team in every country, the American Midwest for some reason, and Ea-Nasir jokes, and I would question where he found the time to jerk off, much less to admin

[-] Lells@kbin.social 2 points 1 year ago

Doesn't the fact that they're blurred tell you that it's NSFW and therefore what you're looking for?

[-] ReCursing@kbin.social 4 points 1 year ago

Maybe I'm in the mood for cock rather than tits today, or vice versa, so just nsfw/sfw binary doesn't necessarily answer that

[-] Lells@kbin.social 4 points 1 year ago

Maybe I'm browsing the fediverse at work and hardcore porn is frowned upon, so blurred thumbnails absolutely should be an option, if not the norm.

[-] ReCursing@kbin.social 4 points 1 year ago

I don't deny that at all, I was merely commenting on the idea that blurred = nsfw = what one would be after

[-] Lells@kbin.social 2 points 1 year ago

Gotcha, my bad.

[-] ShadowRunner@kbin.social 3 points 1 year ago

No one is saying that blurring shouldn't be an option - just that it should either be tied to a user's NSFW setting or that it should be a user-selectable option.

[-] NotAPenguin@kbin.social 4 points 1 year ago

Isn't the nsfw blur from the enhancement script? and has a toggle?

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this post was submitted on 23 Jun 2023

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