this post was submitted on 12 Jul 2025
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Contrapoints has made some highly problematic statements on Zionism, Israel and Palestine recently, imo. Since I don't have a Jewish background, my main input on the matter comes from Jewish anti-zionists, like Jewish Voice for Peace, see Our Approach to Zionism.

The following videos kinda sum up the issues in a more or less ok way. If you find something better, please share.

(Btw, in this one Philosophy Tube is mentioned and I thought of adding the following video because it has a well-thought part about it: 50:56 - 1:04:36 | Anti-Semitism, Weaponized - Response to Philosophy tube | Rev & Reve)

Edit: Up to now, I really appreciated her take on stuff. Learning the above was a big disappointment for me today. I unsubscribed from her channel. I'm gonna miss her.

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[–] punkisundead@slrpnk.net 2 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

Hey thanks for compiling this and starting a discussion and/or highlighting this issue, I hope to get back to that after I looked through your links. In general I feel like discussions around creator responsibilty, having a huge platform with lots of funding etc. are something kinda lacking in the online spaces I frequent. I think on twitter/mastodon/bluesky there is way more of this.

In the meantime I think it would be helpful for you to write / describe the key points (or link to a summary) you wanted to share. This might make it easier to fully understand your post and what you want to convey in a more accessible way, especially because Lemmy mostly is seems to be mostly text based.

EDIT: Managed to watch parts of the first and second video you linked. I learned new things and recommend others to watch them too. Its pretty instructive to have takes / statements of influencal breadtubers recontextualized and kinda picked apart

[–] solo@slrpnk.net 2 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

I can try to clarify this post as well as I can, the way I see things now. I don't see things on this topic as I did a few years back. Understanding can be a process.

I agree with JVP because I oppose colonialism in every form and all the propaganda that goes with it. Here are some of the things JVP say, and I would recommend reading all the text:

Jewish Voice for Peace is guided by a vision of justice, equality and freedom for all people. We unequivocally oppose Zionism because it is counter to those ideals.

While it had many strains historically, the Zionism that took hold and stands today is a settler-colonial movement, establishing an apartheid state where Jews have more rights than others. Our own history teaches us how dangerous this can be.

To try to sustain an apartheid state, a lot of effort is needed, both internally and internationally. Propaganda (among other things) does that, but it also has its limits. Israeli anti-zionists are proof of this.

We know that white people in South Africa created a system that worked in their favor, and that they vocalized, acted upon, and legislated the dehumanization of the locals, just like Israeli-Zionists do. Still, they got over it, and it was not a fairy tale experience. To my understanding, at least some power imbalance is still present, but the fact that it is not institutionalized is super important imo.

If white people in S.A. did it, Zionists in Israel can do it too. Even if it doesn't seem possible right now. Let's remember it didn't seem possible for S.A. either. For me, this is realistic. I am not saying that this is the only possibility, clearly not. I am saying it is a possibility worth pursuing, and it can be achieved with adequate international pressure. There is an example to follow, copy the good stuff, and avoid the mistakes.

So I cannot accept that a person with progressive perpectives on many topics, and as well-read as Nataly, is not aiming towards any kind solution. On the contrary, in her reddit post, she is repeating typical Zionist propaganda. She also says other nonsensical stuff, as well as plain lies. You can decide for yourself, the text is just below. I hope that she will change her mind, and soon.

Contrapoints' post on Reddit

Thoughts on I/P

(I’m posting this to Reddit instead of Twitter, hopefully to minimize fragments being clipped out of context. Sincerest apologies to the mods.)

So—many leftists feel betrayed because I haven’t made a video on Palestine. Do they actually want a ContraPoints video about Palestine? Will they be happy if I get in the bath and pour milk on a mannequin of Benjamin Netanyahu? No. I have posted about Gaza occasionally, and have quietly given money to Palestinian aid organizations. But I think what leftists really want is for me to join their chorus of anger. They sense some hesitation on my part, and are judging me very harshly on my presumed opinions. I’d rather be judged on my actual opinions. So, here they are:

Is Israel committing genocide in Gaza? Yes. Do I oppose it? Yes. Do I feel angry about it? Yes. I also feel a lot of other things:

I. Doom. The week after October 7 it was clear the mood among Israeli leaders and civilians was overwhelmingly kill-or-be-killed existential panic and unstoppable lust for revenge. It reminded me of the US after 9/11. There was no reasoning or protesting them out of it. Nor was it politically feasible for the US to withdraw aid to Israel on a timeframe that would make a difference. It would have required replacing most of Congress and overturning decades of bipartisan strategy and diplomacy. Even in the best case scenario, it would’ve taken years. So there was a sense of futility. But worse:

II. Misery. The leftist pro-Palestine movement quickly decided that their primary goal was not merely opposition to the genocide, but opposition to Zionism in general; that is, opposition to the existence of Israel as a Jewish state. And here they decided to draw the line separating decent people from genocidal fascists, which had the following consequences:

It shrunk the coalition. “Zionist” is a very broad category. Most Jews are Zionists. Anyone who supports a two-state solution is a Zionist.

It was politically infeasible. What is the pathway that takes us from the present situation to the dissolution of Israel as a Jewish state? I don’t see how this could happen without either a total internal collapse of Israeli society or else, you know, nuclear war. As usual, leftists have championed a doomed cause.

It introduced dangerous ambiguities. The vagueness of “Zionism” as a political Satan enables all kinds of rhetorical abuses. On the one hand, rightwing Israelis hold up all Anti-Zionist protests as existentially threatening and inherently antisemitic. On the other hand, there is a long history of antisemites using the term “Zionist” in deliberately equivocal ways (ZOG, etc). Antisemites are happy for the opportunity to misappropriate the now-popular “Anti-Zionist” label to legitimize their agenda, and many people are not informed enough about antisemitism to recognize when this is happening. These problems are mutually reinforcing.

III. Dread. The online left has spent the last 20 months distributing hundreds of photos and videos of dead Palestinian children. The main effect of this has been to create a population of people in a constant state of bloodboiling rage with no consequential political outlet. I fear this may be worse than useless. Antisemitism and Anti-Zionism are conceptually not the same, and conflating them is dangerous. But in practice, the way Israel is perceived does seep out into attitudes toward Jews in general. I don’t think Jews who feel isolated and wary in the current atmosphere are simply hysterical or hallucinating. Yes, there’s communal trauma and hypervigilance. Yes, there’s disingenuous rightwing ghouls dismissing and censoring all criticism of Israel on the pretext of “fighting antisemitism.” But there’s also a valid fear of historical antisemitic patterns recurring, and that fear gives power to the rightwing Zionist claim that only Israel can keep Jews safe. Does this mean Israel should not be criticized and sanctioned? Absolutely not. But it’s something I don’t want to risk contributing to if not outweighed by tangible benefits. So, I approach the issue cautiously.

IV. Bitterness. Much of the online left spent all of 2024 single-mindedly focused on Palestine and the complicity of Democratic politicians in sending aid to Israel. This campaign had the following effects:

Zero Palestinian lives were saved. Not one fewer bomb or bullet was fired by the IDF.

It may have slightly contributed to the reelection of Trump, guaranteeing that the US will put no diplomatic pressure on Netanyahu for at least four years, and making protests against Israel both much riskier and less effective. Trump is also, incidentally, a menace to me and basically everyone I care about. A perfectly enlightened being would feel no bitterness about this, but I do.

None of this is the fault of Palestinians, of course, who are overwhelmingly the victims here. I hope that someday American policy will shift in their favor, and I will continue to support that cause.

TL;DR I see the situation as bleak, intractable, extremely divisive, and devoid of any element that could be appropriately transformed into political entertainment. That’s why I haven’t made a video about it.

Hopefully it goes without saying that these are just my thoughts—I’m sure other “breadtubers” have different opinions.

[source: https://www.reddit.com/r/ContraPoints/comments/1lvxfqo/thoughts_on_ip/]

Of course, there are so many more things to say on this matter, but I will stop here because I don't want this to get even longer.

Some resources from JVP, and I would suggest spending time on their site: