332
Thats huge!
Definitely, and still way below the numbers that have been showing up in the academic literature over the past couple years.
It'll have to survive the next election. Republicans will of course only hammer the negative impacts on businesses.
Of course. Pretty much every positive action by the US government has this issue.
I thought 250 usd/ton was one of those numbers from literature?
Whats proposed nowadays?
Up to $525/ton
Ok. Still 200 is better than 50.
Considering Trump wants it at $5 I would consider the current progress fantastic.
Got a source, and also how you go about keeping yourself updated on that number
The full article is paywalled, but the abstract of this meta-analysis states "In the past 10 years, estimates of the social cost of carbon have increased from US$9 per tCO2 to US$40 per tCO2 for a high discount rate and from US$122 per tCO2 to US$525 per tCO2 for a low discount rate." Published May 15 of this year.
It would be nice if these numbers didn't yo-yo with each administration. Even if one is pro-low price, it must fuck up long term plans tremendously.
(I am pro-high cost of fossil fuels, but want process to increase at a steady and predictable rate. $1 million in steps every 6 months is very different from $1 million in one step at any point in time.)
You are right, but these numbers are intrinsically affected by value-judgements - about how to integrate impacts over time, across different sectors, across rich and poor countries/communities and over probability of such impacts (risk aversion). It's not so much the science changing, but the values - hence political shifts. It would help if experts could separate these factors more clearly. For example people mention "the discount rate", but there is not just one - there is a (low) pure time preference for the whole world and higher rates for individuals and companies with finite lifetimes, also higher in rapidly developing countries (this does make sense, given a non-linear welfare function).
The new number will be put into action right away: the E.P.A. plans this spring to release final regulations to curb carbon dioxide from cars, trucks and power plants.
The impact on power plants should not be underestimated. This is a win, and hopefully we'll be able to ween ourselves off fossil fuels and coal more quickly if it hurts these power companies bottom line.
Hopefully this will also move into the private airplane business, and cruise line industry.
Cars will take more time, because we have to cycle the old fossil fuel engines for newer cars that just aren't cost effective right now. Not to mention, some people will want to keep their gas powered car.
Honestly?
I'd totally go on a sail and solar powered cruise line. That'd be cool as fuck.
My gas powered car is paid off, any electric car isn’t, and any electric car with equivalent space for my family and bimonthly Costco trips and equipment to make the ride comfortable would run me $50k. Guess which one I’m driving for the foreseeable future.
Nobody is talking about forcing you to get rid of your old car: they're talking about making new ones be electric, so that we see full replacement as people scrap old ones.
Re-read the comment I replied to and my own. I want an electric car, they’re just not economically feasible for most people, and will likely remain that way for the foreseeable future. People can’t afford electric cars with reasonable seating for a family and space for their stuff.
You can make cheap ones. The Chevy Bolt was just fine. It's that automakers decided giant trucks for the wealthy are more profitable, and that the rest of us have to live with used vehicles.
The Chevy Bolt is cheap and feels it. Read my other comment on it; I have driven one more than a few times, ridden in one even more often, and it’s absurdly bad compared to even a base level Mazda3 in interior quality. It honestly feels cheaper than my my first car, an early 90’s Toyota Tercel, let alone compared to a modern import. If the Bolt is the future of EVs, we’re doomed, because it’s not fun to drive and every moment in it is a reminder that it’s cheap for a reason. It may be better than the Prius C due to being an EV, but that’s not exactly a high bar to clear, and I’m pretty sure it will lose where it counts, customer satisfaction. I can’t imagine someone with the money to buy something better puts the money down for a Bolt and is happy with their decision after six or 12 months, let alone the decade plus that we all should be keeping our vehicles to defray the environmental cost of their construction.
That leaves people with limited financial options, the people forced to buy either a used ICE vehicle or the cheapest EV when their old car dies; you’ll probably recognize them as the working poor (and their ranks are growing thanks to runaway capitalism). If the solution is to force them into terrible vehicles, perfect; the Bolt should serve as a wonderful reminder that profits are valued above them at every step.
I agree that it is cheap. It's entirely possible for manufactures to do a lot better at that price point, but it's less profitable.
Right, and since profits are king, the affordable electric cars will stay terrible because an ICE is $1k or so to manufacture while an electric power train including battery is at least five times that in cost. When you look at a $27k car, tax incentives excluded (especially because some people will be unable to use them), the electric car has to be cheapened, every corner cut, or the profits just won’t be there.
Again, it’s dollar for dollar, when you sit in a $20k Mazda versus a Chevy Bolt that will cost the same if the full $7k tax incentive is realized, the quality difference is tangible. Until that’s addressed, there won’t be people wanting to buy that car.
Im curious, why are you comparing a sedan to a suv? Beyond being about the same cost upfront after tax credit, if still 8.5k cheaper over ten years than the smaller Mazda.
I also doubt most of its customers are that horrified by its quality, given as far as i could see its reviewed well by consumers.
I compared a sedan and SUV because they both will fit a family of four and their suitcases for roughly the same price.
I can only speak as somebody who has spent some real time in one, I’d never buy a Bolt. They’re well liked, but as the very cheapest electric vehicles, not just as vehicles. In other words, compared against actually good ICE or hybrid vehicles, the Bolt has zero appeal aside from being electric. That makes us a passable electric vehicle but an overall crappy car to drive. Also, for $850 a year I’d take the Mazda in a heartbeat. Sure, that’s a “privilege”, but it’s also a proven reliable, quality vehicle that will absolutely positively not feel like a tin can that rattles when you shut a door. If somebody spends real time in their vehicle, as I have at various points in my life, I wouldn’t take the Bolt.
They've been selling out the entire Bolt manufacturing capacity. So clearly people do want it
Do they, or is there a lack of an alternative in that niche? Again, I can only speak from my personal experience driving and riding in one; I’d choose pretty much anything else with four wheels.
There have been a few other low-cost models. Also all selling out.
They'll make them fancier if that stops happening
The Chevy Bolt is big enough for the average family and starts at $27k before incentives.
A close relative of mine has one, so I can speak specifically to my problems with it. It’s a tin can and feels it every time you open or close a door, let alone when you use the interior compartments. It doesn’t have power nor heated seats and the manual adjustments are frustrating at best, and the cloth doesn’t clean easily from children’s snacks. Also, it makes a high pitched noise inside the cabin at low speeds that’s absolutely aggravating. Finally, the “trunk” is smaller even than another relative’s Mazda3 Hatch, even including the compartment underneath the main area in the Bolt. It cannot fit four carryon sized suitcases and maintain rear visibility.
None of those issues have anything whatsoever to do with it being a EV. It’s a GM product deep into the economy price bracket, and you’re complaining about a lack of power seats or cheap sounding door closure? It’s a cheap car, it’s no surprise that cheap cars lack in luxuries.
Being a cheap car is kind of the point though. There are family friendly 4 door EVs in most new car buyers’ price brackets, from cheap hatchbacks to the fastest super cars and almost everything in between.
Not all cheap cars lack in luxuries let alone normal things like space for luggage; bad cheap cars do which is why I keep harping on the Bolt in particular. There are good electric vehicles out there, I’m sure, they’re just not in every price range, as an average new car price of $40k is beyond what most people can actually afford when inflation’s been hammering their food and housing expenses. The Bolt’s niche, at roughly $20k after tax credits, means it’s competing with lightly used Civic/Corolla/Mazda3 vehicles, all three of which are much better cars overall, and have decades of reliability. If you can’t depend on a Bolt and it feels cheap when it works perfectly, what working class person is going to want one?
Now we are comparing used cars to new ones? It has always been the case that you get more for your money with a used car than a new one, it’s nothing new.
In any case, these are all just niggly complaints if I’m being honest. It’s far nicer and more spacious than the average family would choose in most of the world outside America. It’s a perfectly adequate car for most families.
We often see this straw man argument that standardizing on electric cars in the future will make it impossible for people to afford to drive. The Bolt shows there is a future for the economy segment with EVs.
You must have GM stock to love the Bolt this much, it’s unbelievable otherwise that somebody would invest so much energy in such a bad product. The Bolt is a terrible car compared to other cars, plain and simple. It’s barely passable to drive, has a history of rather fatal flaws (two recalls for fire seems like more than most people want), and it has almost no space for luggage/shopping. It works great for short trips in a city without kids in tow, assuming you define great as getting from Point A to B.
A Bolt is the Spirit Airlines of cars, cheapened at every level and miserable to experience, but sure, it could work. It’s an illusion of progress, and most of what it does efficiently could be replaced by electric bikes. For anything else, it’s a poor substitute for a good car, ICE or EV. Now, could there be a good EV in that niche? Absolutely, but it’s running up against competing interests, affordability for the 99% versus fair wages for the workers building the thing. It can’t be a great car, it’s too cheap and has too much money wrapped up in its powertrain to be great on its own merits, but it could be much, much better, inside and out.
It doesn’t need to feel so cheap, that’s the MBA set dictating the corner cutting to eke out every cent of profit. Like I said in another comment, my first car was a base model Tercel, so I have a good idea of what a car can feel like even when built on the cheap. The Bolt doesn’t even hit that level of quality, and a Tercel isn’t exactly a luxury vehicle. But don’t believe me, go test drive a base model Civic or Mazda3 and then a Bolt. You’ll immediately notice the difference in everything you touch and see inside, let alone when you open the trunk/hatch to see the available space. But hey, I’m just a guy ranting on the Internet, having driven hundreds of thousands of miles in Toyotas, Hondas, Mazdas, and oh, right, some very unfortunate time in a Bolt.
I want a better economy car that’s an EV; I’d love to have better options. The current offerings just aren’t there yet, and there’s little reason to think they will get there when the motivation is profit instead of the planet.
Does any one have a link to the estimation process?
So the "social cost" is magically whatever they need it to be? I guess the next republican administration lowers it to about $3.50...
It's an estimate of how much damage a given amount of emissions does. The number has risen as we have gotten a better understanding of how damaging greenhouse gas emissions are
Seems more likely that it's policy driven, not science driven. I'd like to see the peer-reviewed science that quadrupled the number.
I wonder how this will affect the price of diesel. From what I’ve read from farmers that is the main thing driving the price of food up. Whether it’s meat or veggies. It takes lots of diesel to run a farm, and this could have serious implications for our food prices.
I just want to be clear that as an outdoors person I also would like a cleaner environment, but I also have to eat. I eat what I kill. So, it’s important that the environment be clean. But, I can’t live off meat and veggies that I kill / forage.
Yes but climate change will have dramatically negative effects in agriculture in the long term. The cost of food can’t always be a silver bullet objection to climate regulation. We can undoubtedly find ways to grow food with less carbon cost if there is economic incentive for it, and long term impacts need to be considered even more than short term when we consider how bad the projections are.
this post was submitted on 02 Dec 2023
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