grimb

joined 4 days ago
[–] grimb@hexbear.net 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I think Lenin's framework is interesting, but I would be careful about taking it at face value, because the historical practice of Leninism complicates the picture quite a lot.

The distinction between oppressed and oppressor nations is a useful analytical tool, and I agree that nationalism does not have an identical meaning in every historical context. A national movement of a people trying to escape imperial domination is not the same thing as the nationalism of an imperial power trying to maintain control over other peoples.

However, the problem is that Lenin himself did not always treat the right of self-determination as an unconditional democratic principle. He was quite explicit that recognizing the right to secession was also a political strategy something that could reduce resistance to the new state and make voluntary unity more likely. In other words, the promise of self-determination was not only about respecting national rights, but also about creating conditions where those nations would choose to remain within a socialist framework.

This becomes especially important when looking at what happened after 1917. The Bolsheviks proclaimed the right of nations to self-determination, including the possibility of secession, but when Ukraine and other nations of the former Russian Empire actually attempted to use that right, the situation changed very quickly. Ukrainian independence movements, as well as movements among other non-Russian peoples, were opposed militarily by the Bolshevik government. This suggests that the principle was applied differently depending on whether national self-determination threatened the new central authority.

That is why I think the Norway–Sweden example is more complicated than it first appears. It works well as a theoretical example of how socialists from a dominant nation should behave toward a weaker nation. But the situation of Ukraine in 1917–1921 was different: Ukraine was not simply another independent country seeking recognition; it was part of the territory over which the Bolsheviks were trying to establish a new political order. The question was no longer only about supporting self-determination, but about whether that self-determination could actually limit the power of the revolutionary state.

This does not mean that Lenin's distinction between oppressor and oppressed nations is useless. I think there is still an important point there: nationalism from a position of domination and nationalism from a position of resistance are not the same thing. But the historical lesson is also that even a theory built around liberation can become a political instrument when the people applying it have their own state interests.

So I would separate two things: the idea that leftists should oppose imperial domination and support the right of nations to decide their own future which is a principle that can be defended independently and Lenin's own political strategy, where the recognition of that right was often conditional on whether it helped or hindered the revolutionary project.

[–] grimb@hexbear.net 2 points 1 day ago (1 children)

First of all, I am honestly not answering the question of whether I consider nationalism inherently good or bad. Those are value judgments, and therefore I am not even trying to combine left-wing movements with nationalism. I am only asking myself whether nationalism is, by its nature, a left-wing ideology.

Secondly, regarding the question of whether there are examples of movements that broke away from an existing socialist project under a national banner without becoming fascist or capitalist — there are. The clearest example is Tito’s Yugoslavia in 1948, which broke with the Cominform and Stalin while insisting on its own “national” path to socialism, independent from external dictates coming from Moscow.

There are also examples of this kind of separation within a state itself. The most illustrative case is the Croatian Spring (MASPOK) in Yugoslavia in 1971. It was a movement within the Croatian Communist Party: the reformist wing of local communists demanded greater economic and political autonomy for Croatia within the federation, criticized the redistribution of resources in favor of Belgrade, and advocated a “Croatian path” to socialism. Tito suppressed the movement, its leaders were removed from their positions, and some were imprisoned, but the movement itself was formed as a socialist, nationally oriented movement rather than an attempt to restore capitalism.

And ideologically, one can also split from an existing socialist project, as Trotskyists did, although this does not need much explanation since you already know the example.

[–] grimb@hexbear.net 2 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Exactly! This is an incredibly important question, and your perspective is quite reasonable. But now try reading the other answers here they seem to come from the opposite assumption: that national self-determination is essential. So they would probably disagree with you.

[–] grimb@hexbear.net 2 points 1 day ago (3 children)

So, is leaving a socialist project necessarily a bourgeois desire to preserve inequality or restore capitalism? I don't think that follows. A movement can be motivated by other principles: democratic self-determination, opposition to political centralization, protection of cultural identity, or dissatisfaction with the way power is organized. Rejecting a specific socialist state does not automatically mean rejecting every idea associated with socialism or wanting a return to a class hierarchy. A project can fail not only because people want more economic inequality, but also because people disagree with how that project is implemented.

Moreover, if a state claiming to be socialist becomes highly authoritarian or totalitarian, one could argue that it has moved away from the fundamental principles it claims to represent. If political power is concentrated in the hands of a single party rather than being exercised by workers or society as a whole, then the question is not simply whether people are rejecting socialism, but whether they are rejecting a system that no longer reflects their understanding of socialism. People can oppose such a state while still being committed socialists themselves.

[–] grimb@hexbear.net 1 points 1 day ago (3 children)

First of all, the fact that a national movement takes place in the context of NATO expansion does not automatically mean that the movement itself is defined by NATO interests. That would be like judging the nature of a phenomenon exclusively by the circumstances in which it emerged while ignoring its own internal logic, demands, and the goals of the people participating in it.

Second, I literally gave an example of an alternative form of nationalism existing within Ukrainian society one that is left-wing, and more importantly, actually mainstream among many younger activists and parts of civil society. It is also, in many ways, an extremely progressive form of nationalism, combining national identity with feminism, decolonial studies, and other progressive ideas. But it seems you ignored this because you approached the topic through your own theoretical framework rather than through the actual context of Ukrainian society. That's fine, but it does make the analysis rather incomplete.

Third, the comparison with Israel is interesting, and I think there are some aspects worth discussing, but I have to ask: who exactly is Ukraine colonizing? Russia? That would certainly be a surprising interpretation of the situation.

What honestly saddens me is that this seems to come from a very simplified assumption: if the Western world supports Ukraine, then Ukraine itself must somehow become a reactionary or imperial project. But political movements are not defined only by who supports them internationally.

[–] grimb@hexbear.net 4 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I agree that "left" and "right" are not fixed categories, and I didn't try to define them in the post because this is a discussion thread, not a 300-page political theory book. We could easily spend a month arguing about what left and right even mean before getting back to nationalism itself.

So I think it's better to let everyone interpret these terms in their own way and explain their own understanding of the question rather than getting stuck in endless debates over definitions.

[–] grimb@hexbear.net 4 points 1 day ago (7 children)

I can agree with you that nationalism itself is not always good or bad. It depends on the situation and whether it is used by an oppressed group fighting for sovereignty or by a dominant group trying to maintain power.

But in practice I find this idea difficult to apply. What about nationalism in the Balkans? Croatian nationalists openly collaborated with the Nazis, Serbian nationalists committed ethnic cleansing during the Yugoslav wars, and I do not think I need to explain in detail everything that happened there.

Are the Balkans simply not considered part of the Global South? But these nations also fought against imperial rule and foreign domination. So how do we decide when nationalism is a progressive struggle for freedom and when it becomes a reactionary ethnic ideology?

 

I've been wondering whether nationalism is inherently a left-wing or a right-wing ideology.

Historically, the answer doesn't seem obvious. During the French Revolution, nationalism was largely associated with the Left. It challenged monarchy, aristocratic privilege, and the old dynastic order by arguing that sovereignty belonged to the nation rather than to a king. In that context, nationalism was a revolutionary and emancipatory force.

Today, though, the picture seems much more complicated.

In many countries, nationalism is primarily associated with the Right: conservative movements, anti-immigration politics, cultural traditionalism, or ethnic conceptions of the nation. Examples could include much of the contemporary European far right or various forms of right-wing populism.

At the same time, there are clearly left-wing nationalist movements. Irish republicanism is probably one of the best-known examples, where nationalism has often been intertwined with socialism, anti-colonialism, and labor politics. Similar patterns can be found in other anti-colonial or national liberation movements.

What's even more interesting is that the same national movement can contain both right-wing and left-wing currents.

Ukraine seems like a good example. There is an explicitly right-wing nationalist current, represented by groups such as Azov and similar organizations, emphasizing military traditions, conservative values, and ethnic nationalism.

But there is also a distinctly left-leaning current of Ukrainian nationalism, often represented by younger activists and parts of civil society. Their understanding of national identity is frequently combined with feminism, LGBTQ rights, decolonial theory, and other progressive ideas. Ukrainian feminism, for example, draws on a long tradition of influential women writers and intellectuals, while decolonial studies have become increasingly important in interpreting Ukraine's relationship with the Russian Empire and the Soviet Union.

Am I missing something here, or is nationalism better understood as a politically neutral framework that can be adopted by both the left and the right?

[–] grimb@hexbear.net 1 points 3 days ago

Yeah, I'd love that! If you can, whenever you mention a channel, could you also add a couple of words about what it's about or what makes it interesting? I'd really appreciate that

[–] grimb@hexbear.net 2 points 3 days ago

I really appreciate you taking the time to write all that out. Thanks for such a detailed reply.

[–] grimb@hexbear.net 4 points 3 days ago (2 children)

Where do memes in the Western internet actually come from? Back in the day where I lived, most memes came from VK. There were dedicated meme pages that made original stuff, and then a bunch of other pages that just reposted it. These days, pretty much all new memes come out of small Telegram communities. So where do they come from on your side of the internet?

[–] grimb@hexbear.net 5 points 3 days ago (2 children)

I've heard a bit about how 4chan started, mostly because I know about its Russian counterpart, 2ch. It's pretty pro-government these days, and the guy who owns it openly supports Putin.

I also remember hearing this theory that 4chan was somehow started with FBI help or whatever, but I never cared enough to actually look into it.

But you mentioned banning anime pedos. Why do these edgelord types always seem to come out of that whole scene?

In Russia, a lot of 2ch's early culture was tied to this guy, Maksim Martsinkevich. You can Google him if you want. He's mostly known for hunting down alleged pedophiles, filming himself beating and humiliating them, and all that. I don't really feel like getting into the details, but those videos are still all over the internet if you're curious.

There was even one time they went after a Russian government official. There's honestly a lot you could say about the whole thing.

I just don't get why this kind of stuff always seems to overlap with the alt-right.

[–] grimb@hexbear.net 6 points 3 days ago (1 children)

What was your first thought when you read my post?

 

Hey everyone.

I'm from Ukraine, and I'm honestly tired of staying inside both the Russian-speaking and Ukrainian-speaking internet.

I know English well enough (learned it in school), but I've never really lived in the English-speaking internet. Like, sure, I know who PewDiePie, IShowSpeed, and Asmongold are, but I don't actually understand the culture around them or the wider online space.

I want to start consuming English-language content properly, but I have no idea where to begin. I want to understand the memes, the drama, the ongoing discussions, the personalities basically the whole ecosystem.

The problem is... I don't even know how to define what I'm looking for. If I knew exactly what I wanted, I'd probably be able to find it myself. Since I don't, I'm asking here. Sorry if this is kind of vague.

For anyone willing to read a wall of text, here's why I'm looking to leave the internet spaces I'm used to.

The Ukrainian internet is extremely focused on itself. Most discussions revolve around domestic politics, the war, or urgent social issues. That's understandable, of course, but it also creates a very tense atmosphere. It feels like almost everything is political. Most of our biggest YouTube channels are political channels, and there's relatively little entertainment content. Living in that constant state of tension gets exhausting after a while. I also just want to get outside of this relatively small cultural bubble.

The Russian-speaking internet has almost the opposite problem. It's largely apolitical not because politics don't exist, but because most people seem to actively avoid talking about the country's crises, the war, or domestic problems. That's true for everyone, from average users to huge creators. There are political bloggers, sure, but in my opinion they're usually terrible. One group keeps saying Russia is about to collapse any day now, while another mostly talks about Ukrainians as a way to distract from internal issues. And people who seriously discuss politics often end up being treated like weird fringe figures.

There's a ton of entertainment content in Russian, but there's another problem: mainstream internet culture is absolutely saturated with far-right "edgy" humor. Endless jokes about feminists, Black people, minorities, etc., along with a constant stream of misinformation built around those topics. The whole environment just feels incredibly toxic. It seems eager to sneer at almost everything. That general misanthropy has seeped into almost every corner of entertainment, and I've reached the point where I just don't enjoy being around it anymore.

So... where should I start if I want to get into the English-speaking internet?

P.S. One thing I've struggled to find is something similar to what I used to watch in Russian. There were Twitch streamers who'd casually talk about philosophy, history, politics, literature, or other "intellectual" topics, but in a very informal and funny way. Not university lectures or serious debates.

More like: "lmao, did you know Nietzsche supposedly drank his own urine out of a boot?" That kind of vibe. Half entertainment, half genuine discussion. The intellectual part came from all the references and the fact that serious ideas were mixed with jokes instead of being presented academically.

Does that kind of content exist in English? If so, who should I check out?

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