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this post was submitted on 02 Apr 2024
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While this specific case may even be somewhat justified, where does it end? What constitutes an insult so grievous that the government should punish you for it?
Misgendering, alright. Attacking someone's honor? Probably. Putting together an angry, slur-filled rant? Perhaps. Insulting someone's parents? Hmm.
And so forth. This is an incredibly slippery slope, one that virtually all democracies currently existing have avoided to go down because it inevitably leads to oppression.
This "slippery slope" of yours has not been a problem in the many countries that have adopted it.
Not even in Brazil under Bolsonaro.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech_laws_by_country
I am German. We have restrictions on free speech in place, primarily around Nazism and Israel.
Our government is literally curbing anything critical of israel with those restrictions at this very moment.
Sounds like a reason to make the law better, not throw it out.
I don't think that's the lesson here. More that even the most well intentioned restrictions can and will be abused by the government once they have that power. If our far right gets into the government I cant imagine what kind of dystopian crap they will try to do with it.
I am similarly very sceptical of the constant debate for more surveillance and online control in the name of ”protecting the children”. Another very worthy, and very emotionally charged cause where most people will instinctively agree before even thinking about the consequences.
Again- that did not happen when Bolsonaro took power in Brazil.
So maybe the problem is your laws, not hate speech laws in general.
You're acting like Germany is the only country in the world that has these laws.
And you are acting as if because there is one struggling democracy somewhere on the world who has yet to abuse it, all other incidents and examples throughout history for the inevitable abuse of such power are not valid.
You've given me one single example of abuse. The one in your country.
Again, that sounds like a problem with your country's laws in specific.
Do you really want me to list the dozens of instances throughout history where the right to restrict people’s expression has inadvertently caused or helped authoritarians consolidate power? I would think you largely know about those already.
A quite recent example is ironically related to the same topic, namely conservatives and religious zealots wanting to police speech the other way by banning inclusionary language. The other side of the exact same coin. I'm sure you are familiar with that issue since it most prominently happens in america, though plenty of European right wingers are looking to do similar things.
I want you to list the dozens of instances throughout history where, specifically, hate speech laws have done so.
And if your example is one where Rowling was not arrested, it's not a very good one.
Why are you moving the goalpost now? That's pretty lame.
I am arguing that the right to free speech is a central element of a free and pluralistic society, and that allowing the government to interfere with it beyond the direct prevention of harm, such as incitement of violence, will inevitably help erode those values, as it has done countless times before. And curtailing them, even with the best intentions, is the start of doing just that.
How am I moving the goalposts? My argument this entire time is that hate speech laws are a good idea. You have given me one single example where they didn't work properly, which I still contend is about the way the laws were written, not the law itself.
Again, the fact that Bolsonaro did not abuse Brazil's hate speech laws suggests that autocrats can't do so if the laws are robust. Your lack of addressing that uncomfortable fact does not make it less of a fact.
The fact that Rowling was not arrested after trying very hard to get arrested (same with Jordan Peterson in Canada) also suggests that this is not the horrific problem you imply.
I don't want to be rude, but do you really not understand that this first small infraction isn't the issue, but the precedent it sets? One of my first comments in this increasingly exhausting thread of talking in circles was that this specific instance of interference might even be justified, but that it would open the door to unjust interference.
Just look at your own political system. Reactionary forces are constantly eroding, amending, and expanding on overreaching legislation once it is passed. And your Democrats are just as happy to make use of it too.
One great example off the top of my head is the ”temporary” patriot act, an overreaching anti terror measure that was extended for almost 20 years by various political actors, and (as far as I know) the most critical parts of it got spliced off into other legislation and made law indefinitely.
So if we open that door, and the political climate continues to polarize, chances are at some point in the reasonably near future (a few decades maybe) an authoritarian party or movement will use this ability to interfere with or outright suppress their opposition, dissidents, minorities, the citizens in general, what have you. It only takes a few complicit judges in high places to compromise even the most benevolent legislation. Guided democracy is only ironically cool in helldivers.
As for Brazil, I don't see how that has any bearing on my point. Just because a government hasn't abused or wasn't able to abuse the law this time doesn't mean that the next won't do so. Reactionary forces are always at work; patiently and silently lobbying, bribing, influencing, working to control the narrative. Always to slowly erode and subvert the system.
Anyway, I don't think there is much point in continuing this discussion, you seem very set on the government policing speech and I am dead set on the opposite. We probably won't convince each other.
Yet again, the only example of this setting any sort of precedent is Germany and yet again, I contend that is because of the laws there being poorly-written.
What happened in Brazil absolutely matters because it showed that, due to the robustness of their hate speech laws, even a would-be dictator couldn't abuse them.
Badly-written laws will be badly applied no matter what those laws are.