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What is your opinion of Joseph Stalin?
(lemm.ee)
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this post was submitted on 11 Dec 2024
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Why is it that you believe the correct answer is "in the middle?" Moreover, why do you believe that you can simply stop the progression towards full public ownership, and therefore full centralization, assuming productive forces continue to develop? The point of Marxism is that there is no such thing as a stagnant system, and competition within markets further results in centralization, paving the way for public ownership to be superior.
I don't think I'd be "stopping" the progression, just that the progression is not towards some absolute idealistic end. (and to note in my ideal system, my individual ideals are secondary to the populations average), just that the natural maximum optimization, say of organizations type, an amount of organizations would be publicly controlled by a government, and an amount would be controlled by the employees themselves in a coop structure.
I think this makes sense as there will likely be products that a niche set of people want, but is not at such a scale that the government and the people behind it would want to dedicate collective resources towards it directly.
Fundamentally I believe the uniqueness and fickleness of people I believe will always outpace any collective structure, and so allowing for that to be represented in a society is key to success, and that entails organizations outside of collective-control which rely on consensus.
I do want a socialist system were all shares of an organization are either public ally owned or owned by the employees themselves, with no rent seeking capitalists involved.
Out of curiosity, have you read Marx? Much of what you're saying goes against standard Marxist consensus. As an example, cooperatives are not "Marxist," they allow accumulation despite eliminating bourgeois exploitation of proletarians. To that extent, they also must retain money, and trade, which becomes superfluous in the context of the rest of a Socialist society that would rather be fully planned.
Moreover, you are separating the idea of "government" from the "people" in a manner that confuses what Communism would actually look like. In retaining private property, you retain the conditions for Capitalism to emerge, and you retain groups that potentially stand at odds with the interests of the rest of the economy. This is why Public Ownership and Central Planning becomes superior to market-based systems once the productive forces have reached sufficient levels of development, and why Marxists say a system like that which you describe would eventually turn into Communism anyways as it works itself out to be more efficient.
If you want a starter guide, I recommend my own introductory Marxist reading list.
I have not yet, but i do plan to, thanks for the reading list, I will check into it.
At least at the moment and from what I know so far, I do not identify or align with Marxism or Communism, I do with socialism and i do not view socialism as some half step.
What do you say in response to the notion that no system is static, and ergo is either moving towards full public ownership and planning or is regressing? Markets have a tendency to centralize in order to combat a tendency for the rate of profit to fall, which leads to inefficiencies. At some point, these markets coalesce into syndicates with internal planning, at which point it becomes far more efficient overall to fold them into the public sector. There remains no use for said markets.
To me, the statement that markets will always remain useful in some aspect, same with private property, sounds similar to saying feudalism will always have some use, and even slavery. At some point markets will fade into obsolescence much the same way older modes of production did, alongside advancements in technology and production, same as what happened to feudalism and slavery.
I do agree that no system is static. But I do not agree that because all systems are dynamic, that all systems must veer to public ownership or are regressing.
I do not believe that all products, markets, niches, and so on are in the interest, nor supported by the entire public, but that some products, irregardless of the public interest can still be deeply important or wanted by a minority of people. Thus they should have a route to still be created, but the public not obligated to support it.
In an example, Potentially over time that once niche minority product becomes of such importance and dominance that the public begins to gain control and wishes to support and dedicate public resources to it.
This churning is what keeps the system dynamic, but it also does not conform to some ideal where all products and ideas must be started and filtered by the public interest and consensus.
Systems must veer towards their trajectories. Markets naturally centralize and develop their own internal methods of planning, at which point it is more efficient to fold them into the public sector and centrally plan them. There's no such thing as a company that stays the same size, nor is there a reason to not have them in the public sector when it is more efficient to do so and integrate with the rest of a planned economy.
Furthermore, being desired by a minority of the population doesn't mean cooperatives are more effective at accomplishing said goal. They can just as easily be folded into the public sector, the profit motive is unnecessary.
Further, even in centrally planned economies, there does not need to be such an even filter across the entire economy. Public ownership does not mean the end of choice. All in all, I think you're confused on what Central Planning and Public Ownership actually looks like.
The abolition of private property under communism is akin to the abolition of chattel slavery. So let me ask you this. Do you think abolition of slavery is too extreme and total slavery (whatever that means) is too extreme, and therefore something in the middle like only chattel slavery for a subset of the population is where the system will be optimized?
There is a lot of truth to your main point that centralization and decentralization are a dialectic, but I don't think you understand that they are a dialectic. Instead of seeing the dialectic, I think what you're doing is arguing against a strawman. Marxist theory does not posit that everything everywhere at all times in all ways should be centralized. Centralization and decentralization cannot exist without each other. The question is one of the relationship between the two. Stalin was not pursuing a policy of centralizing everything everywhere all the time, nor was the USSR. You are not arguing against a real position. You are accidentally landing on the Marxist position without understanding it.