this post was submitted on 22 May 2025
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Both.
Conservatives have nothing of value to contribute to discussions. I say that on the basis of having made serious attempts at engagement with them. They are very anti-intellectual and bring down the quality of discussion to quips and shouting matches. BlueMAGA types are similar, but they are at least toned down a few degrees, and importantly, they aren't openly bigoted and exclusionary. Like, you're never going to have trans people and MAGA coexisting in the same online spaces and I'd much rather have the former than the latter, as there's a much higher probability of them saying something worthwhile.
It's like, imagine two doctors trying to discuss the intricacies of their field in a room where a conspiracy theorist, like, say, Jimmy Dore for example, is listening in for some phrase they can twist around and take out of context and attack them with. That's what it's like having conservatives in an online space.
Outside of online spaces, conservatives are largely incompatible with a functioning society, they don't understand basic concepts needed for the government to function, and their heads are instead filled with a bunch of harmful and objectively wrong ideas. They will fight tooth and nail against their own interests just to stop anyone else from having good things.
On the rare occasions when they accidentally stumble into a correct take, it's because they're wrong twice, and it only muddies the waters for people who have a similar take for coherent reasons.
Name one thing that conservatives contribute to any discussion that's worth listening to.
This is why Trump is in the oval office, and some of you are too full of yourselves to see it.
You mean calling them Nazi's and fascists and telling them they should be murdered because they want to stop illegal immigration didn't work?! I am SHOCKED.
I think I understand what you are saying, but that is the nature of a society.
We all have our own unique upbringings and experiences that shape us.
Political tribalism helps increase the difficulty of uniting the working class. Divide and conquer is still relevant in our society, especially with identity politics and social issues.
I think it fundamentally goes back to:
The problem with this sentiment is that you misrepresent the points of contention. This is not a disagreement over people’s preferred pizza toppings, where parties can safely “agree to disagree.” We are talking about positions that pose a clear, real, immediate existential threat to entire groups of people, simply because they exist. Do you really think this hasn't been discussed? Do you genuinely think this hasn’t been talked about, debated, argued, demonstrated, illustrated, and experienced ad infinitum for literal decades?
The reason you are being downvoted (and justly so) is that your argument in this case is literally a form of victim-blaming. People being actively harmed, abused, and oppressed are under no obligated whatsoever to try and meet their aggressors in the middle or to concede any part of their existence to them. This disease was festering long before the internet existed. “Echo chambers” have nothing to do with it. It a matter of good versus evil, right versus wrong, liberty versus death. Neither the oppressed mor their defenders will lie down and die because you are inconvenienced by conflict they never wanted.
Divide and conquer strategies work.
I am saying that we need to unite the working class where we agree, not just focus on where we disagree.
The duopoly will always work against the working class while handing out crumbs so as to win some small points.
We must build a rainbow coalition (Black Panther Party) instead of continuing the political tribalism of blue versus red teams (Bloods versus Crips).
That is why I mentioned:
It takes time and effort to build up a rainbow coalition, but it is possible.
Chris Smalls was able to do it with the Amazon Labor Union (ALU) in Staten Island; instead of talking to people where they disagree, they come together on things that they agree with.
Example 2 of why Trump is in power, and how you guys still don't get it.
Are you suggesting that Trump does not take such positions?
Which positions that Trump takes are a "clear, real, immediate existential threat to entire groups of people, simply because they exist"?
Deporting the most vulnerable members of society to forever prison in El Salvador, then telling the president of that country (on camera) that he needs to build four or five more forever prisons so Trump can start sending the "homegrowns".
Illegal immigrant gang members? What?
Have you seen any evidence of illegal immigrant gang members?
...are they in the room with us now?
Yes. The only people who have been sent to El Salvador were illegal immigrants with proven gang affiliation.
No, it was notably never proven. There's been no opportunity for anyone to review ICE's evidence. That's a big part of why everybody's riled up about it.
Garcia was proven in court in 2019 to be MS-13.
Every single one of them was in the country illegally to, and the Alien Enemies Act or whatever it’s called lets them these gang members and affiliates without further trials.
And either way - what is the “existential threat to a group of people for simply existing” like the original claim?
Garcia is one person, who was already handled by the courts and was not a danger. Is that two year old US citizen also guilty of gang membership?
The 2 year old didn’t go to jail. Do you think a 2 year old should be left in the USA by themself? Do you think their parents would want that, or would they want them to go with them back to their home country?
Garcia “not being a danger” is not only debatable, but also irrelevant. His wife took out an AVO on him at one stage, so that signals he might be a danger anyway.
They have already deported not just legal permanent residents, but actual citizens including a two year old girl.
(whoops, wrong person!)
They didn’t “deport” any two year old girl. The parents who were deported chose to take their 2 year old with them, because you know…..she’s 2 so she can’t really fend for herself in the USA. She can come back when she can.
That claim is untested in court meaning that they are innocent until proven guilty no matter what their immigration status is.
It’s been tested in court plenty of times. Garcia for example was determined by 2 separate courts/judges to be MS-13.
Which ones?
I literally just gave you the main example that everyone claims wasn’t tested in court, but actually was.
Where are the court documents?
Google them, the DOHS released them.
I have.
If you believe and respect those documents you must also believe and respect the ones that say the US must bring him back because he was under a protective order.
So do you want him brought back like the court found?
You think the documents are fake?
The Illegal Alien Act overrules the protective order.
That’s not what the latest judge just said though.
What lower court judges say is irrelevant. What matters is the Supreme Court when it comes to presidential actions.
The same Supreme Court that ruled 9-0 to bring him back to the US?
Because of a paperwork error.
Oh so you only like some of their rulings but others are mistakes?
Where did I say I didn’t like that ruling?
There’s nothing worse then a boring troll bud.
Where did I disagree with their ruling?
You’re the one trolling here bud.
You’re not my bud, guy.
You’re not my guy, pal.
Right, but for some of us, our upbringings and experiences include, "Reading actual works of political theory" while for others it involves, "Watching cable TV." An ignorant viewpoint is not on an equal level as an informed one.
Of course, uniting the working class is important, but that doesn't mean falling into "Tailism," that is, adopting reactionary views to ingratiate ourselves to a reactionary population. The goal is to spread education and knowledge to make the population less reactionary. It is necessary, to a degree, to meet people where they're at and to accommodate their concerns, but there is a line to be drawn. Engaging in Tailism fractures the left, alienates comrades who will object for legitimate reasons, legitimizes reactionary views, and makes a movement far more susceptible to opportunists, who are only concerned with their own advancement and willing to sell out members of the working class, since, you know, that's what Tailism is.
If you want to actually build a working class coalition, the most important thing is to practice solidarity. Everyone is part of a minority, in a sense. For instance, whatever job you have, most people aren't involved in that field. Being a minority in a democracy is inherently precarious, because the majority could take your rights away. Solidarity means an alliance between disparate groups to stand together for mutual defense. But that alliance is broken when you sell out a group for political gain. Not only do you lose that group, but every group in the coalition starts wondering if they'll be next, and starts worrying about themselves than coming to the defense of others who might be more in the crosshairs. If solidarity breaks down, then how can the working class be united?
Thanks for your comment!
I agree, identity politics and social issues are divide-and-conquer strategies the duopoly uses against the working class.
We need to build a rainbow coalition (Black Panther Party), similar to how Chris Smalls was able to make the Amazon Labor Union (ALU) in Staten Island.
Bringing together the working class on what we agree on instead of focusing on what we don't agree on.
...Which protects the rights of marginalized people such as trans people ~~even~~ especially when those rights are under attack, right?
The working-class coalition would help bring people together on working-class struggles.
If you look at the history of these movements, they involved befriending the KKK and conflicting gangs, where they are coming together to help fight against the ruler class.
This would also include when any group's rights are under attack.
To be able to do that, dialogue would have to be possible within these movements and organizations.
Hard pass on "befriending the KKK"
And that is why divide-and-conquer strategies work.
Building a working-class coalition requires bringing people together from all walks of life, not cherry-picking one or the other.
Again, this is difficult and time-consuming; it will not be easy.
Learning from the history of past working-class coalition attempts, we know that they are infiltrated and the leaders are assassinated and smeared.
Dialogue works; it helps bring opposing movements and organizations, gangs, together to help bring about a working-class movement.
Chris Smalls was able to achieve a great stepping stone when he was able to make the Amazon Labor Union (ALU) in Staten Island by bringing people from all walks of life and not cherry-picking certain groups and excluding them from the working-class movement.
Sorry, I wasn't aware that one of the "walks of life" Chris Small brought people in from was the fucking KKK. For that matter, I don't recall the Black Panthers befriending the KKK either! Huh, how about that!
Fucking brainworms.
I did not say Chris Smalls brought the KKK and other groups to ALU; I said that he brought the working-class people together on what they agreed on so as to build the Amazon Labor Union.
He did not start the movement by excluding certain groups, gangs, movements, organizations, or political leanings.
I included Chris Smalls as an example of what can be done when we focus on bringing people together instead of focusing on excluding certain groups and political leanings when it comes to building a working-class movement.
I was not able to find when the Black Panther Party worked with groups associated with the KKK, but they did try to bring white organizations into their working-class movement.
Here is a short video on the Rainbow Coalition of the Black Panther Party:
From North to South: Chairman Fred Hampton and the original Rainbow Coalition [09:37 | MAR 25 2021 | Reckon] https://lemmy.world/post/30176761
Pretty sure he never had any intention of working with the KKK. Pretty sure that if the KKK came up to him and told him they wanted to join his movement, he'd tell them to fuck off, the same way virtually anyone would.
Fucking brainworms, stg.
You weren't, huh? Wow, who woulda guessed?
They were willing to work with them, but they did not change their positions to accommodate them. They did not sell out their own members or members of other minority groups in order to appeal to them.
You are adding your own opinion and bias when you say this about excluding and cherry picking; we don't know if he would reject any groups when they have common interests that would help the working class.
It was a quick search; I remember reading and watching videos on the matter.
Correction: It was not directly with the KKK, but with white groups that shared common interests in helping the working-class movement. There is one event I remember when a different group and the KKK worked together to force the government to pay their social services checks, but it was a while ago.
I did not say or mention changing our positions; I said coming together on things we agree on, which includes addressing working-class struggles.