this post was submitted on 12 Jun 2026
78 points (80.0% liked)

science

27421 readers
492 users here now

A community to post scientific articles, news, and civil discussion.

dart board;; science bs

rule #1: be kind

lemmy.world rules

founded 3 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] Miller@lemmy.world 55 points 1 day ago (4 children)

Is this the game where we stretch the meaning of words beyond usefulness to force an exciting story. Consciousness is a peculiar state, if everything is then nothing is, is that the point of the exercise.

[–] gandalf_der_12te@feddit.org -2 points 12 hours ago (1 children)

Consciousness is a peculiar state, if everything is then nothing is, is that the point of the exercise.

nah i don't think that everything is conscious but all living beings are.

[–] Miller@lemmy.world 2 points 10 hours ago

My point is that if you do accept that human consciousness is a special case then you would still need a word for that level of sentience, and why not keep consciousness as that word and find another for the more general appreciation of environment that non-human terrestrial organisms possess. In truth I think there is already a word for that general condition and the word is life, I think an awareness of your place and a feeling for its beauty is a defining characteristic of all life.

[–] Hegar@fedia.io 20 points 1 day ago

People stretch the word "consciousness" to include things like free-will, human-level intelligence, articulating an understanding of the world, having ideologies, etc.

It's very close to the classical greek word ψυχή, soul, from where we get psyche. And very close to how many christians have understood "soul".

But often scientific inquiry leads us to realize how fictional and self-serving our understandings are. Souls aren't real and consciousness in the brain is just an information sorting process.

Much of life may exhibit that process to some degree. Unsurprising, really - information sorting as complex as ours should have precursors.

[–] givesomefucks@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Is this the game where we stretch the meaning of words beyond usefulness to force an exciting story. Consciousness is a peculiar state, if everything is then nothing is, is that the point of the exercise.

No, you just don't know what you're talking about...

A simple aromatic ring can experience two states and prefer one or the other, they're not only a basic conciouness, but they're OCD too. Whichever state they prefer, they start organizing shit like that. And that leads to biological life.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-022-10068-4

That paper covers a lot of what you'll need to know for that to make sense.

But that's also why true alien life is a 50/50 death sentence no matter what, if they have "left hand biology" any contamination would be a total wipeout. At the base level the new addition would outcompete the host base level, because nothing would be capable of using it as food.

Like that shit in the 80s with Revinar, it was an HIV medication that was liquid, however a crystalline molecule was created accidentally. Which made an entire production facility inoperable, no matter what they did they kept getting crystals not liquid.

Then it started spreading to other facilities and they could track it from specific people moving between locations.

Because just a single molecule in a lab was enough to make all future distiliations copy it.

Revinar is like a brick mansions, "left hand biology" is the scale of a single brick.

And an Aromatic ring can just be some kid who spends all day making little bricks for fun.

[–] gandalf_der_12te@feddit.org 1 points 12 hours ago

this is like the thing about prions which are proteins that make other proteins fold into a copy of themselves, thereby spreading.

they're not alive as we understand it (they don't have genetic code), they're just a single big molecule copying itself all over the world.

another example, as you've already said, is crystals growing over time (metabolism) in aequous solutions.

[–] TriplePlaid@wetshav.ing 8 points 1 day ago (3 children)

Got a source for this "Revinar" crystal business? I wasn't able to find what you are mentioning when I search for it, and it conflicts with my understanding of chemistry.

[–] givesomefucks@lemmy.world 11 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

In general:

It is hypothesized that contact with a single microscopic seed crystal of the new polymorph can be enough to start a chain reaction causing the transformation of a much larger mass of material.[5] Widespread contamination with such microscopic seed crystals may lead to the impression that the original polymorph has "disappeared". In a few cases, such as progesterone and paroxetine hydrochloride, the disappearance gradually spread across the world, and it is suspected that it is because Earth's atmosphere has over time become permeated with tiny seed crystals. It is believed that seeds as small as a few million molecules (about 10−15 grams) are sufficient for converting one morph to another, making unwanted disappearance of morphs particularly difficult to prevent.[3] It is hypothesized that "unintentional seeding" may also be responsible for a related phenomenon, where a previously difficult-to-crystallize compound becomes easier to crystallize over time.[5]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disappearing_polymorph

The actual thing I was thinking of and not my butchered spelling:

During development—ritonavir was introduced in 1996—only the crystal form now called form I was found; however, in 1998, a lower free energy,[54] more stable polymorph, form II, was discovered. This more stable crystal form was less soluble, which resulted in significantly lower bioavailability. The compromised oral bioavailability of the drug led to temporary removal of the oral capsule formulation from the market.[53] As a consequence of the fact that even a trace amount of form II can result in the conversion of the more bioavailable form I into form II, the presence of form II threatened the ruin of existing supplies of the oral capsule formulation of ritonavir; and indeed, form II was found in production lines, effectively halting ritonavir production.[52] Abbott withdrew the capsules from the market, and prescribing physicians were encouraged to switch to a Norvir suspension.[55] It has been estimated that Abbott lost more than US$250 million as a result, and the incident is often cited as a high-profile example of disappearing polymorphs.[56]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ritonavir

But thanks for actually asking.

And sorry I guess for being off a decade, names and dates aren't as easy for me as concepts and science.

[–] heydo@lemmy.world 3 points 1 day ago

There was a recent Verstasium video about it.

[–] Elting@piefed.social -3 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (2 children)

Consciousness is more like gravity or electrical charge than a cognitive state. It permeates space and is an inherent property of matter and energy. I think the narrow definition we have had for it is in need of expanding, and the science keeps going in that direction.

[–] Miller@lemmy.world 8 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (3 children)

Sounds a little hippy to me but 'there are more things in Heaven and Earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy' so if it is the case we will still need a word for what consciousness did mean. Why not leave consciousness alone and find a new word to mean the interconnectedness of grifting ideas to make a living.

[–] Zachariah@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago

if it is the case we will still need a word for what consciousness did mean

awareness

[–] givesomefucks@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Sounds a little hippy to me

Yeah...

Because it is?

Quantum physics has been proposed to be part of the solution for the mystery of consciousness. In particular the holistic character of quantum entanglement might provide an answer to the binding problem14. In the 1990s, Penrose and Hameroff proposed a theory of consciousness based on quantum computations in MTs15,16,17,18. Computational modeling suggested that electron resonance transfer among aromatic amino acid tryptophan (Trp) rings in tubulin (subunits of MTs) in a quantum electronic process could play roles in consciousness19. Craddock et al. showed that anesthetic molecules might bind in the same regions and hence result in loss of consciousness20. In a recent experiment, Zhang et al. observed a connection between electronic states and vibrational states in tubulin and MTs21. However, quantum electronic coherence beyond ultrafast timescales demands more supporting evidence and has been recently challenged experimentally22. In contrast, quantum spin coherence could be preserved for much longer timescales23. For example, Fisher has proposed that phosphorus nuclear spins could be entangled in networks of Posner molecules, , which could form the basis of a quantum mechanism for neural processing in the brain24. However, this particular spin-based model also requires more supporting evidence and recently has faced experimental challenges25.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-022-10068-4

Most people just can't understand that shit, so when someone talks about it in easy to use terms, it sounds "a little hippy".

Like, that's where the hippies got their words from in the first place bro...

"Vibing" is an accurate scientific description of two consciousnesses that are agreeable with each other. The people saying it don't always understand it, but most of what "hippies" say about consciousness is pretty fucking accurate.

Why not leave consciousness alone

Why keep insisting the people who always used the term correctly stop because it doesn't match the simplified version you were taught decades ago in jr high?

[–] Miller@lemmy.world 8 points 1 day ago (1 children)

The forced degradation of words is unhelpful, a word will still be needed to differentiate the unparalleled state of mind from the emerging properties of complex systems. Concepts like consciousness and God are often commandeered to peddle tenuous ideas to the great unwashed and it is ultimately unsustainable. And while we are about it computational modelling is a license to find what you want to find.

[–] givesomefucks@lemmy.world -3 points 1 day ago

The forced degradation of words is unhelpful

Then stop doing it...

You're trying to make people who use the word correctly stop, because you never knew what it meant.

And of fucking course youre plugging chat it's now.

[–] Elting@piefed.social -1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Science isn't a philosophy, its a process for approaching the truth. Yes, I can't prove what I am saying and it is based more on a strong feeling than direct proof. I think the question of consciousness is a particularly important one, and we know very little about it still.

[–] Miller@lemmy.world 5 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (2 children)

Your first line is science is a means to find truth, your second line is I have no proof I just feel it.

Edit. I did not mean for that to sound so aggressive, I disagree with some of what you said but you are genuine.

[–] Senal@programming.dev 5 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

The science is the means, not the truth.

Well, the scientific method is, not sure if that also applies to the definition of science as s singular word.

[–] Elting@piefed.social 0 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

You treat science/knowledge as a philosophy when it is inherently incomplete and always will be.

[–] Triumph@fedia.io 2 points 1 day ago (1 children)
[–] Elting@piefed.social 1 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)
[–] Soggy@lemmy.world 6 points 23 hours ago (1 children)

Then I choose to support the way that isn't woowoo space magic.

[–] Elting@piefed.social 0 points 17 hours ago* (last edited 17 hours ago) (1 children)

What is it about non-materialism that you guys seem to find so upsetting? Is it that it decenters your experience of the self? Is it the idea of unknowable truth? Its like I have attacked you personally by suggesting another way of looking at reality.

Edit: One of the reasons I have rejected materialism/physicalism is that you can’t have free will under it. Its deterministic. I think most people, even those that turn to that way of thinking for comfort, find the idea of no free will disturbing.

[–] Soggy@lemmy.world 2 points 12 hours ago (1 children)

I reject it for the same reason I am staunchly anti-religious: I think the acceptance of magical thinking is a net negative for society.

Free will is overrated. It feels like we have it and whether it's real or not has no impact on our actions. You've traded one illusion for another.

[–] Elting@piefed.social 0 points 11 hours ago

I would contend that believing all can be known is magical thinking on its own.