In a discussion with progressive libs talking about all the virtues of being a democrat supporter and being opposed to fascism and the current state of affairs with ICE and I reply by telling them that the dems have supported ICE at every turn and they have taken every opportunity to increase their funding so how is that leaning away from fascism by their own reasoning? I also said that if a Nazi promised to do 50% less holocaust, would that also qualify as leaning away from fascism (which is incredibly charitable given that the democrats absolutely do not even come close to reducing their support for ICE to 50% of the GOP.)
Someone replies with "they managed to do it with a lot less shooting of people and a lot less assaulting of people unwarranted". (Apparently assaulting people is cool if you have a warrant??)
I tell them exactly what you'd expect. "So you're not opposed to fascism as long as it minimizes shootings and ICE only assaults people when they have a warrant?"
Look at this reply of theirs:
Respect. Proceduralism. Fascism is cool with me if it's a few notches below the current fever-pitch level. Even though the dems have been willing collaborators in walking this path every step of the way, it's pretty silly to both sides the issue (no I will not elaborate). There are only two options: ICE and open borders.
...this is exactly what I'm talking about when I say that progressives are worse to deal with than conservatives. I know that there's this trope about MAGA supporters being brainwashed and it's not untrue but if anyone can explain to me how you can call yourself antifascist and "pretty heavily anti-ICE" while defending the party that increases ICE funding every time they get into power then I'd love to hear it because as far as I can tell if you're acting like ICE has always existed, that it's a necessity, and that you're opposed to ICE while defending it and defending your support of the party that throws its full weight behind ICE then how is that not being so deep in the trashcan of ideology that your roommate is Oscar the Grouch?
My tactic with working with liberals is to ignore them as much as possible and just see how they change their mind whenever a progressive movement is too large to ignore. It’s infuriating to interact with them but it’s funny to watch them change their position after a successful campaign.
I like this angle.
You know, sometimes when a progressive Yankee starts defending the most disgusting things I'll really lean into it and say shit like "As a staunch opponent of the United States who believes that the world can only ever truly be free once the US is destroyed, I appreciate your efforts in defending ICE because it's the most effective way to push your country into civil war and thus its eventual destruction so I want to thank you for all your efforts and I wish you the best of luck."
I'm not sure what they make of a reply like that because I think it throws them off balance. They probably just assume that it's a bit but, in all honesty, there's a lot of truth to it. I don't actually want to see the US descend into civil war because odds are it will turn fascist and it will grind a whole lot of people up in the death machine in the process but also it feels impossible to reason with these people and maybe me cheering on their efforts because I'm eager to see the destruction of the US will jolt them out of it and make them reflect on what they're arguing for?
I don't think people fully appreciate just how cooked we are. It's American exceptionalism at its worst. Civil war only happens to the uncivilized brown masses.
The obstinate refusal of the liberals to acknowledge reality is a big part of this. They think institutions can protect them. America is fundamentally good, and all this nastiness will eventually blow over, once that awful Trump guy is gone. Marvel brain.
The thing is structurally unstable. Its completely fractured. It's a tree rotten and hollow but appearing intact from the outside. You can see the larval holes in the bark but only if you know how to look.
Ironically civil war is the best outcome, probably. The alternative is a world war with nukes
To be honest I feel like no words can really change a liberal mind, but maybe I’m wrong and just bad at communicating with them. I think their beliefs are created almost entirely by what the government and media deem ‘acceptable’ and our views are usually just too far away from those boundaries. One of the only times I’ve really seen liberals change their minds was when there were massive protests against the genocide in Palestine because it basically signalled that tho pro Palestinian position is the popular position instead of what the media tried to tell us.
Other times are very specific to my personal work so I can’t say too much on it but the change in view basically happened whenever there was a majority vote for a progressive result. The liberals could read the room before the voting took place and didn’t even dare to vote against even though they were against in every previous discussion where they thought they held the majority position. Now they act like they were never against and are actually somewhat helpful on the subject.
Regarding ICE I think liberals have to actually see that the majority of people do want to abolish ICE before they will take over that position themselves.