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Welcome again to everybody. Take a seat make yourself at home, and please let me know if you find the Radio Remote its been missing sense last week. In the time-honoured tradition of our group, here is the weekly discussion thread.
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what's the deal with vietnam and israel? actually, what's the deal with vietnam in general?
If you have questions regarding Vietnam, you can ask several comrades that have knowledge from there such @kredditacc@lemmygrad.ml and @traxanh@hexbear.net .
As for your comments here, trading is not the same as giving support. Never fall for the lie of straying away from the main culprits of keeping the Zionist entity alive which is the West.
As for the rest, be extremely careful from where you get your news from. Right now, there is a strong wave of fake news and psyops trying to destabilise every single country that I am keeping tabs on. Western news are very unreliable and untrustworthy regarding countries that are not aligned or have a different system from liberalism. As an example, check how the Western media slandered the Cuban Flotilla. This type of trashy and insidious reporting is repeating everywhere including in the Sahel countries as Traore warned and even in Asia.
Always crosscheck your sources with the local ones and study how Psyop works.
Beside that, check the community of Vietnam for updates regarding the country if you are really interested -> https://lemmygrad.ml/c/vietnam
What are we refurring to here?
i hear vietnam is really in with israel. endorsing them and trading weapons with them and whatnot. i also hear that they censor pro-israel content so idk how those two things gel. i also hear vietnam is evicting some farmers in favor of imperial capital or something? my recollection is really fuzzy and obviously i don't know anything about vietnam to begin with which is why im asking and why i didn't want to say things i only half-remember.
The Vietnamese government and establishments don't actively censor pro-Israel content, neither do they actively censor anti-Israel content. It's just that the kinds of (Vietnamese-speaking) people who are pro-Israel are usually also pro-West, pro-Trump, reactionary, anti-communist, and anti-Vietnam. Most Vietnamese hate these kinds of people. But most of these anti-Vietnam people also live in the West so we can't really do anything about them.
I would also caution you against collecting news about Vietnam from hearsays and tabloids on social media (such as Twitter/X or Reddit). If you really care, do research carefully. Don't take words as face value.
this is a really good point. i mostly get my information on AES states from lemmygrad these days. but ultimately i'm starting to think that this is an internet forum with all the limitations of an internet forum. the thing about the farmers i got from a post on here a couple months ago. i think it was in /c/vietnam. do you remember that or am i just speaking out of my ass here?
You are referring to this, I believe?
DISCLAIMER: This is not my area of expertise. I also know very little about it.
There's a few things you'll need to keep in minds:
Disputes regarding land compensation rates happen for every big project and every mega project. It is expected of the people, the government, and the business to negotiate.
The government compensate the price of land according to the current value for agriculture lands, not the projected/speculated value. The Hưng Yên project is no different.
Legally speaking, lands cannot be owned by individuals or households in Vietnam. Instead, they got Land Use Rights (quyền sử dụng đất).
Government reclaiming lands doesn't mean that the farmers become jobless or be stripped of livelihood. The government is expected to have plan for them. The government must have policies to ensure their immediate survival, their long term education, their job training. These people are given preferential treatment when taking a loan from state-own banks.
I faintly remember from my childhood, watching TV, usually when a big project is announced, the real-estate brokers (cò đất) would buy lands from the farmers and inflate the prices. This caused headaches for the government. I don't know if this is still a problem in the present day. But since the news rarely talk about it now, I assume it's no longer a problem.
Whenever land reclamation happens, predictability, there shall be narratives from the liberals and the reactionaries, biased and one-sided at best, and outright alarmist and false at worst, trying to paint the Vietnamese government as oppressor. Do not be deceived by them.
Now, as for the specifics, since my knowledge about this subject is not good, I shall refrain from giving you answers. I know this may be disappointing, but I don't like to speak on things I know nothing about. I'm sorry.
But I can point you to other people who might be more interested in providing you information:
@genHCM in particular did mention the Hưng Yên project at least once, IIRC.
DISCLAIMER: I don't personally know any of them. I just saw that they wrote a lot. Basically, I vibe-recommended them to you. If they later turn out to be reactionaries or stupid, don't lump me into them.
Who said this to you 👁️🗨️
EDIT: this isn't a threat, I am taking things seriously and engaging in a long-term war of education. Phase Two has inspired me so much I'm suddenly capable of patience. I'm just curious because these claims all ultimately lead back to western economics premises, and tracing that will be illustrative.
it's just various things i've absorbed through osmosis in here. snippets of hexbear and lemmygrad conversations where i didn't really understand the full context of what was being said.
I messed up your @mention so here take this and use it as a weapon: https://lemmygrad.ml/post/11164630
they just chilling
I don't like talking about Vietnam because some comrades get angry with my opinion but hey why not.
Vietnam got recaptured by Neo-colonialism. In Wretched of the earth Fanon warns against the national bourgeoisie capture of the post-colonial state and selling it out to former colonial powers. I see a variation on that going on in Vietnam. Foreign capital and the local bourgeoisie control the means of production. Some of that foreign investment comes from zionists so they support the zionist project.
The party does try to raise the living standards for workers through social spending like healthcare and pensions but they have essentially bought off the revolutionaries and are now slowly betraying them now that the revolutionaries are too old to take up arms.
China avoided this fate by having a civil war after (also preceding and concurrent with) the anti-colonial war which separated the national bourgeoisie from the real communist revolutionaries and followed that with the Cultural Revolution.
As comrade pup mentioned, Vietnam did have a civil war. Most of the fighting during the war took place between the north backed NLF and the US backed puppet government in the south. The US has used its cultural hegemony to inflate the role of US troops on the ground, just as it did for WWII.
We must remember that the war carried on until 1975. It has understandably taken time for the country to recover from this.
Vietnam has followed a very similar path to development as China. They too experienced the limits of socialism without access to the capital and advanced education needed to develop the productive forces and have moved to a market socialist economy in order to resolve this key contradiction. This does not mean that the CPV are a bunch of "capitalist roaders", just like the CPC are not a bunch of "capitalist roaders".
A couple of important recent developments in Vietnam:
It takes time to educate the masses and education is necessary in order to decentralize and reduce bureaucracy. This is what is happening now in Vietnam and it is unlocking the potential for the country to further develop its productive forces just as happened in China.
Vietnam has always stood in solidarity with the Palestinian people. Their stance on this matter has not changed.
I know that you are defending Vietnam, but I'd still like to advise you not to use the word "civil war".
In the eyes of Vietnamese, this was an invasion from the US, they proped up a puppet regime against the will of the Vietnamese people, which includes the Southern Vietnamese people, who sarcrificed no less than the other regions in rebellion and revolution against the French colonizers. The US unlawfully denied the Southern Vietnamese people their freedom and independence.
What the English-speaking world call "the Vietnam War" is officially called ”the Resistant War against American imperialism to save the country" (kháng chiến chống đế quốc Mỹ cứu nước) or "the Second Indochina War" (Chiến tranh Đông Dương lần thứ 2) in Vietnam.
Edit: I forgot to add: The puppet regime was formed from a bunch of former French collaborators. The revolutionaries who fought against the French fought against them too. The puppet regime is illegitimate. And the war against them is, by definition, a war against foreign power, not a "civil war".
I agree with you. I use the term "civil war" in the context that most of the fighting was between Vietnamese resistance and Vietnamese collaborators. That is my understanding, anyway. It was not my intention to minimize the role of western colonialism in the struggle.
Edit: In response to China having a "civil war", the Kuomintang was similarly supported by the West.
I find this analysis lacking and boarderline idealistic. I will start with Vietnam did have a civil war, and I would argue more well known than the Chinese Civil war, that being known, atleast in America as the Vietnam war. I would also point out IIRC the CPC views the cultural revolution as a miss step, but I could be wrong on that so someone who knows more feel free to correct me.
Second the United States, dispite loosing, had Vietnam pay them reporations, essentially making all of that a loan to South Vietnam that the Unified Vietnam had to pay back, and so from what I have heard and red Vietnam moved to a more market based socialism and opened up inorder to pay back the reputations thet where somehow saddled with.
Third, I don't see, personally a huge difference in what Vietnam was attempting to do, and what the PRC was able to do, just Vietnam was less successful, but reports I hear from those in Vietnam say that Vietnam is Still a Dictatorship of the Prolitarate, and I am not sure that I have enough information to disagree, however I am more than willing to change my mind if evidence is presented.
Lastly I dont know much about trade with Israel, however I do know that both the PRC also does trading and the Communist Party of Vietnam is very pro palistine
If i am missing sometimes or am blind in my analysis please however let me know,
Since you used the term "civil war", I have to voice my disagreement: https://lemmygrad.ml/post/11108969/7978833
I hope you don't find me annoying.
Thank you so much for the context. You are in no way annoying in the slightest.
My appologies for the oversight and innacuracy
Would youvlike me to edit my above comment to reflect this?
I'm glad you understand.
I am not offended by it. Rather, I think the word "civil war" reflects a slight inadequate understanding of the Vietnam War. This is why I felt I need to provide more accurate information and correction.
The issue is not with the language, but rather the underlying misunderstanding caused by, perhaps, decades of US propaganda. Changing it shall not change the underlying lack of understanding. But by replying to you, providing information and context, I think that's enough.
Slop