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Israel says no exceptions to Gaza siege unless hostages freed
(www.reuters.com)
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this post was submitted on 12 Oct 2023
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Honestly this is an awful situation. But the reason you don't see more harsh criticisms from world leaders (and there have been criticisms and statements calling some of what they are doing as illegal) is because the world leaders know that they may need to same option if something similar happens to them.
Do you have a better suggestion for what Israel should do in order to respond. And saying "free Palestine" doesn't count. They completely left Gaza and it got worse. I can't stand Bibi, but he absolutely called it when they were planning to leave Gaza. The blockade of Gaza didn't start until Hamas took over. And do recall Egypt is also blockading.
If Tijuana started launching rockets and attacked thousands of civilians in California, what do think the response would look like? Or if Morocco did the same to Ceuta?
I don't see how this attack ends. I mean it has absolutely destroyed the chance for Gaza reps to be involved in peace talks. Not that there was much chance of that. Honestly, if I had to guess, Israel plans to wipe out all of the higher up Hamas this time in an attempt to bring Gaza back under the PA/Fatah.
But, given the situation is what it is, how do you think the Israeli government should respond?
I mean, they kind of left Gaza. They still send soldiers in there all the time, they still control most of its borders, it's water, electricity, trash, etc, and they cut those things off all the time. It's basically an open air prison.
Also, Israel has killed off all higher Hamas members before so that won't work. And Bibi supported Hamas to prevent a two state solution before so doubt he wants them united under one government. He just wants to do a genocide now, let's be honest.
As for possible solutions, there's too much emnity between Israel and Palestine, there probably needs to be a third party at this point, even though one caused the problem in the first place lol. Someone that's not the US or UK, since Israel is basically their puppet state and the UK caused the initial issues, and not one of the anti-Israel states like Iran. Or maybe it needs to be formed from both groups so that both points of view are represented? Idk. A solution is definitely the hardest part for sure.
The only reason they can cut off water and power is because Israel provides them with those things. PA has been given money to develop infrastructure, but Hamas chooses to cut up pipes to build rockets and use cement for smuggling tunnels.
PA doesn't have any power in Gaza.
Gotta love how everyone calls Gaza an "open air prison" then go on to blame Israel, totally disregarding the fact that Gaza's southern border is with Egypt.
That's because Egypt isn't the one who kicked them out of their homes and spread into more land, kickstarting the crisis in the first place.
They definitely should accept more than they have, but we can't blame Egypt for not wanting literally millions of refugees. No country would want that. Otherwise you end up like Palestine when the Israelis came in, or the Native Americans when British colonists come in.
I'm a little uninformed on the topic but what's stopping Egypt from taking over the territory? Millions of refugees clearly is a hard prospect but tonnes of land, lots of new citizens to live on it, a wealthy neighbor in Israel, and I have to imagine Israel would be more receptive to Egypt than hamas.
Gaza was controlled by Egypt for quite a while. Israel occupied it and the Sinai after the 1967 six day day war. When they returned the Sinai to Egypt they also offered Gaza back as well so it could go back under their control, but Egypt refused as they didn't want to take on all the Palestinian people who could potentially destabilize Egypt.
Jordan also wouldn't want the west bank back (not that they really have a claim to it either) because Palestinians in Jordan tried to overthrow the monarchy there.
Now that there's a Palestinian identity (instead of just a general Arab identity like it used to be) the Palestinians need to have their own self governance and independence. Absorbing the territories and population into other countries isn't going to be a solution.
Both sides need to cut out the bullshit and negotiate in good faith to find a long term solution. Unfortunately with how entrenched the hate is it's sadly unlikely to happen. The cycle will continue until both sides want it to stop.
I think the horrible truth of the matter is that the cycle won't stop until one side is dead, no matter how much we wish otherwise. There's just too much bad blood for either side to trust the other, too many old grudges spawning new grudges that in turn result in more bloodshed. I legitimately, honestly, seriously don't see a peaceful solution--the Israelis won't give anything up because they (rightly) fear any concessions will simply be used to fuel further attacks by militants until they're driven out or eradicated, and the Palestinians won't give anything up because they don't have anything left to give up, nor do they have anyone who will take them in, so they can't even leave (which they don't want to do anyway since they'd been living there for centuries).
The worst part is that deep down, pretty much everyone knows this, and they know that supporting one side means tacitly supporting the genocide and eradication of the other. But nobody in power wants to come out and say it, because admitting you're supporting genocide is a surefire way to piss off literally everyone. So we get platitudes and high-minded speeches about preventing civilian casualties, and everyone hems and haws while we create our own little Hell on earth.
I'm addition to all the good info buzziebee gave, It's too late with Hamas having control of Gaza now. They're affiliated with the Muslim Brotherhood and Egypt doesn't want those extremists in their country, they've already had issues with them before so I'm pretty sure the MB is illegal in there now.
Great points, but that doesn't stop Egypt from allowing food, water, humanitarian aid, etc from being brought into Gaza, but people talk like Israel has 100% control over Gaza's borders.
Besides, if Gaza and the West Bank were officially the state of Palestine, Israel would have no obligation to allow free passage between Israel and Palestine so it would basically be the same as it is now, although I'm assuming that right now there is also a naval blockade.
Egypt is offering aid. Israel isn't happy with that, though.
Presumably, they'd finally have control over their own water, electricity, trash, etc. And international recognition would help them avoid Israel just taking over more land like they have in the past and are currently doing in the West Bank. But it's complicated. Idk even know if I'm for a one-state or two-state solution. I feel like I keep bouncing between them, because you're right, there's still some problems with the two-state solution.
It would be better if they could all share the land in peace, without the settler colonialism. Maybe with some Constitutional guarantee of rights so the more numerous Palestinian population didn't immediately use their votes to fuck over the Jewish population there as soon as they got the right to vote. But idk, I'm not some doctorate in international and Middle-Eastern relations, I'm just a person who doesn't like civilian deaths and wants to see it all stop 😔
I totally agree. I think a separate internationally recognized Palestinian state is the only solution to keep Israel from encroaching on any more land than they have. That's been offered in the past but turned down by the Palestinians. A separate Palestinian state will also not prevent both sides from firing rockets at each other until the end of time.
I mean. I agree that Hamas are fuckheads and the leaders are very safe somewhere else. They don't care that much about the response. And of course I condemn Hamas' killing of civilians.
Hamas is a tumor that is not interested in lasting peace with Israel. I agree that moderate factions should be governing.
Now, as what Israel should do. It's not easy, I agree. Any option has drawbacks, so there is no good solution, especially at this boiling point.
Keep up the siege, or rather lockdown athat point, but let necessities of life through. Let the Red Cross and other orgnizations help the civilians.
The issue is, that doing this will not lessen the disdain peolle in Gaza have for Israel and become new fertile ground of hatred against Israel. Unless they kill everyone there, at which point the situation is solved. But for what price?
Egypt is through their border with Gaza.
"They completely left Gaza and it got worse."
They left Gaza and then doubled down not only on embargoes, but also on building illegal settlements in West Bank in violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention that they are signatories to.
Well in one night Tijuana would be a smoking crater.
Kind of my point.
“Free Palestine!”
See, it counts.
Rewarding their mass murder of civilians by capitulating, surely that will keep them safe.
It’s a start.
Incentivizing mass murder, bold move. Next time someone you love gets murdered be sure to give the murderer a gift rather than seeking punishment for them. I'm sure that will improve things and lead to a more safe and fair world.
You know I I’m right. And history will prove it.
Your position might have been reasonable two weeks ago. Today, reconciliation with a hostile enemy who is actively murdering and kidnapping your civilians is both inappropriate and foolish.
I’m a fool then. It’s called settler colonialism. And even if I don’t agree with the methods, who am I to judge those who are oppressed. Israel enabled Hamas. So if you don’t like what they did, blame Israel. It’s not complicated.
"Look what you made me do!" Screamed the terrorist as he murdered old women, kidnapped innocents to be used as hostages, paraded bloodied bodies through the streets, beheaded babies, and raped civilians in front of their dead friends.
Yeah really compelling. What you support is vile.
Your bent logic doesn’t work. Was I vile when I nearly cried as I watched a young, barely teen, Palestinian girl pulled from the rubble of her home after it was bombed? If that’s vile, so be it. I stand with Palestine! Not Hamas. Palestine! You stand with Settler Terrorism.
That is worthy of sympathy, what's vile is then saying this justifies mediaeval brutality against civilians. There's a difference between collateral damage and intentionally murdering civilians. Israel goes to great lengths to minimize collateral damage, often giving targets of their strikes advanced warning. If Israel behaved like Hamas, if they went by the same playbook and sought to maximize civilian deaths, there would be no Palestine. The behaviors of these actors are not morally equivalent.
Palestinians of Gaza elected Hamas, they are the representatives that they chose to represent them. Don't pretend this is an unrelated entity. These attacks were not orchestrated by some clandestine civilians, it was the genocidal government they chose behaving the way they said they would.
You’ve been brainwashed. You have no understanding of the history of this conflict. I’ll let Richard Boyd Barret explain it. Don’t bother shopping for shoes, you have no legs to stand on.
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Thanks for the link, all respects to Mr. Barret but he is wrong.
If they were starving Gaza out they would have closed the Egyptian border as well and kept it closed. All of that can get in via supply lines from there.
Gaza hasn't been under occupation since 2005. The parts of the 4th Geneva convention being cited here only applies to occupied territories. Gaza is a hostile enemy territory that Israel is defending themselves against, the UN found Israel's 2010 naval blockade of Gaza to be legal for this reason. Suggesting Israel should be forced to supply a hostile foreign power that is actively killing their people is an insane proposition.
Lol. I’m gonna let you cook for a week and see if you feel the same way.
If you still feel the same way after the bombings, you might want to start gathering wooden rods… for a bundle, and don’t forget the axe.
Yes. It worked super well to prevent world war 2.
Conflated logic fallacy. Palestine is not Germany. They’re not asking for Poland. They just want to be left alone.
Then they should probably return to the negotiation table to participate in the peace process willing to make concessions, and stop launching constant guerilla terrorist attacks against civilians, poking the bear. That's the only viable way that they can be left alone. They don't seem interested in going that route and instead seem keen on genocide against an enemy they can't hope to defeat militarily.
Israel withdrew from Gaza and then the Palestinians there elected Hamas, now this happened as a result. Way to incentivize Israel to leave them alone.
Get informed. Please.