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this post was submitted on 13 Oct 2023
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It's almost like motivation, methods, intentions, and circumstances matter and not just body count. For example, intentionally targeting civilians to maximize civilian deaths is not the same as accidentally killing civilians with collateral damage while trying to minimize civilian deaths.
Guess which side this is, then:
When Israeli soldiers are bragging about raping and torturing people, it's very clear what their intentions are
Source?
That's troubling if true, and if it is, do you believe said soldiers speak for the entire Israeli government? Hamas's atrocities are official policy.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/ending-censorship-idf-admits-officer-jailed-in-2017-raped-a-palestinian-woman/
Thanks for the link.
So one officer 7 years ago, who had the book thrown at him for his crimes by Israel. His actions are clearly opposed by his government and he was punished for his behavior. This isn't the smoking gun @matcha_addict was implying it is.
Do you think Hamas will punish its own rapists, murderers, and kidnappers?
Wow, you sure dismissed that as an isolated incident real quick!
I’m sure it never happened again now that they caught the only guy who got caught for doing it!
Hamas is not a state or government. It is a militia to fight occupation. It is nowhere near as organized as Israel with its governing body. You cannot equate the two.
Israel does not oppose this. There are mountains of evidence of Israelis torturing and raping children, pregnant women and elderly Palestinians. There is mountains of evidence of Palestinians being burned alive, or forced to destroy their own homes with their bare hands. The magnitude of cruelty is unmatched.
Do you want more evidence? I am happy to provide. But it seems you reject it even when presented evidence.
Incorrect. Hamas was elected as the government of Gaza in 2006 and there hasn't been another election held since.
Source?
Yes, please do.
What evidence was I presented with that I rejected? The one article I was given (by someone else) does not prove systemic atrocities like you implied. It was an example of one criminal who was punished by Israel for his crimes.
https://www.savethechildren.net/news/%E2%80%9Ctreated-animals%E2%80%9D-palestinian-children-face-inhumane-treatment-israeli-run-prisons
https://www.savethechildren.net/news/stripped-beaten-and-blindfolded-new-research-reveals-ongoing-violence-and-abuse-palestinian
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/05/palestinian-boy-mohammed-abu-khdeir-burned-alive
https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/how-israel-protects-its-settlers-who-burn-palestinian-children-alive
https://www.timesofisrael.com/ending-censorship-idf-admits-officer-jailed-in-2017-raped-a-palestinian-woman/
https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/editorial/2023-09-05/ty-article-opinion/israels-humiliating-practice-of-strip-searching-palestinian-women/0000018a-61b0-daa9-a78f-efb765a30000
Thanks! I appreciate you providing sources. You've given me a lot to chew on and it's good to have additional context.
Reading some more, it seems like there is rampant mistreatment of children on both sides of this conflict, if anyone is worthy of sympathy in this conflict it's children.
The military prison abuse issue is one I wasn't aware of, that sounds pretty terrible. Clearly the military prisons need more oversight and the courts need reform. This one does seem like an example of systemic Israeli injustice.
I wonder what the best approach is to rehabilitate kids who attack soldiers with stones? It seems like they're being treated like future enemy soldiers, which may or may not be true. In any event it seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy, given the additional animosity systemic abuse like this must engender.
Wouldn't negotiating peace immediately remove Palestinians from the Israeli military court's authority? Seems like constant attacks just ensure that they remain under its jurisdiction.
I haven't found any articles about attempts to address this problem, I'm curious what if anything is being done in Israel about this.
The murder of Mohammed Abu Khedir was a terrible crime, and the people responsible were brought to justice by Israel.
Wow, talk about a biased source!
According to wikipedia regarding the duma arson attack:
Again, criminals who were severely punished for their crimes by Israel.
Rapist criminal, punished and convicted by Israel.
Being strip searched sucks but if someone is suspected of being armed it doesn't seem unreasonable if there's probable cause. If there isn't probable cause the soldiers should be reprimanded. If the IDF account is credible the search seems like it was done professionally by female solders. I'm not sure why this ranks among the other grievances, but this is an op-ed after all.
Of all these only the military prison for kids reeks of systemic injustice. Most of your examples are criminals who were punished by Israel for their crimes, motivated by the cycle of animosity. If the IDF were issuing orders to rape and murder non-combatant civilians you might have a case for equivalency but I see no evidence here of anything that can justify intentionally targeting civilians like Hamas has.
That's just one of countless examples from a two seconds of googling. It's the height of intellectual dishonesty to try and frame it as an isolated incident.
Hamas' official policy is resisting occupation and massacre, not committing it.
The burden of proof lies on the person making a claim. But sure, I'll still respond. From Hamas' official website:
Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity.
https://hamas.ps/en/post/678
Nice quote. How about a few more?
Hamas' official policy is genocide and they just committed a massacre last week.
I addressed something similar to the first article you linked in another comment. The gist is that, no, that is not their official policy, and that contradicts with their official charter, posted on their official website.
Yes the article I linked above discusses the revised charter. I see why you chose to share it rather than the original.
Hamas' original charter of course was explicitly genocidal:
Regarding the new one, the one you linked:
It seems like Hamas revised some of the more objectionable language in the original, but they are still Hamas, and their intentions are quite clear both by word and deed.
The comment I linked to you in response to a comment making the same claims you're making. All of your points should be addressed in the comment I linked. Is there any part of the comment I linked you that you think is incorrect? Or is there something you think I left unaddressed? Please let me know.
It's a quite big change, not mere paraphrasing or slight changes if that's what you're implying. Hamas changed radically in that time, as I explained in the comment I linked, and the document reflects that.
Intentions of what? Do you mean your original claim above? Again, I already talked about why that's false. It would be easier if you address my argument instead of make the same claims again. The only genocidal entity by word and deed at the moment is Israel.
Did they just downvote you for asking a source? is this reddit all over again?
If that's what they're trying to do, they really fucking suck at it.
And the motivation, methods, intentions, and circumstances don't matter a bit to the victims and their loved ones.
(They're definitely not trying to do that either.)
While they do certainly look different, the end result of a death by malice or by ignorance is the same.