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this post was submitted on 17 Oct 2023
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It's not a religious war, fyi
How so? Israel 'settles' there in what they call their holy land. Hamas yells Allah Akbar as they kill and take hostages. Are you trolling?
No, it has almost nothing to do with religion. The only part of the Israeli-Palestinian crisis that actually tangibly relates to a religious dispute, is the contesting claims over Jerusalem (because it's holy to both Judaism and Islam).
Literally the entire rest of the conflict is based on competing nationalist claims.
Yes, even though Hamas is yelling "Allahu-akbar". Believe it or not, they're not fighting because of their religion, they're fighting because of their political goals (namely in Hamas' case AFAIK the destruction of Israel). They do also happen to be religious, but the primary conflict is a political one.
Hamas's goals are both political and religious.
They're explicitly fighting to establish a Muslim theocracy, under sharia law.
It's not akin to something like the American revolution, where you had a number of religious people fighting to establish a secular country.
It's more like the Maccabean revolt against the Selucids, where the Jewish leaders were the priests, and ended with the establishment of the Hasmonean dynasty where the high priest became king.
Would you really argue that the Maccabean revolt had nothing to do with religion?
That's fair. Religion can be a very important part of both identities.
However, I would like to stress that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is not directly motivated by religious differences. As in, it's not a case of "their religion is different! GET EM!". The direct problem isn't that the other side has a different religion, it's that the other side essentially has competing land claims, and a competing nationalist vision.
Since religion is an important part of Hamas' identity (and possibly of some factions in Israel, I'd guess), that affects how each side frames the conflict, and what some of their means and ends are. But the key issues of the conflict have to do with things like land borders and economic conditions.
Right.
But those nationalist visions aren't entirely secular in origin. For both Hamas and religious zionists, they're rooted in their religion.
This isn't religiously motivated violence the same way that the Spanish Inquisition was. But religion is pretty deeply baked into the conflict, in some very important ways.
You know? I think that sums it up nicely.
They do not want to just destruct Israel, they want to kill all Jewish people and want a purely Muslim country. Anti-semitism in the area existed before Israel was created and is a reason why it was created in the first place.
It's just often ignored because Jews aren't a group that people sympathise with. There are also many more Muslim people and even hinting that you do not support everything Palestine does, as a Muslim or not, can make you a target for lots of hate. There are even people who will tell you that you "aren't a real Muslim" if you support a two-state-solution.
Religion is the coat of paint put on top of an occupation that is actually the root cause here.
Both the Zionists and the Jihadists claim to be inspired by their religion, but the actual cause of the decades-long conflict has little to do with religion and much more to do with decades of occupation and oppression.
It’s a race war if anything. Religion is used to fuel it. But Israel doesn’t care about its gods. It only cares about people within its tribe controlling its country. Eventually Israel will have to choose between being Jewish controlled and being democratic, even. Because demographics are trending against there being a Jewish majority forever. They will ditch democracy. I mean, they already have by deliberately disenfranchising millions of Arabs from it. An apartheid democracy isn’t a democracy, it’s an oligarchy. Anyway, no, it’s not about the Jewish god. If you think Judaism is a religion, straight up, you don’t understand it. The Arabs also cling to their religion because it’s the one thing no one can take away from them. It’s also very effective at controlling people.
Hamas is literally an offshoot of the Muslim brotherhood.
Fatah is reasonably secular. But Hamas is fighting a literal jihad against Jews. To Hamas, this is very much a religious war to establish a Muslim theocracracy over all of Israel.
You're still confusing the pretext with the actual reason. Hamas and the Zionists both say they are doing this for religious reasons, but the actual reasons are much more complex and almost entirely political and social. You're buying into the propaganda from both sides of you really think the root of this catastrophe is religion.
Hamas only exists because of the occupation and oppression caused by the state of Israel.
Hamas, as mentioned, is an offshoot of the Muslim brotherhood. The Muslim brotherhood still exists in Egypt, despite Egypt not oppressing Muslims. Hamas might not have split off into a separate organization, but they'd basically still exist without Israel.
More to the point, though, why Israel? Why did Jews want to establish a state in Israel? Are you really going to argue that had nothing to do with religion? The second intifada was literally caused by Ariel Sharon visiting the Al-Aqsa mosque. Clearly, that had nothing to do with religion either.
I'm not saying that the conflict is purely religious. It's a complex blend of religion and politics.
Arguing that religion has nothing to do with it is ridiculous.
Why did Jews settle in Israel?
There were many there already. It is their historical homeland of origin.
It has cultural significance as a past Jewish homeland.
And frankly I think being surrounded by enemies has been galvanizing for them, not a minus at all.
AND, here’s the main thing I think you are insisting on missing: it has religious significance too, which whips up certain people into a fervor.
Just because leaders manipulate people with religion doesn’t mean they are religiously motivated. Religion is for manipulating people. It has a great impact on certain people and situations, but it’s a tool. For example, if you want suicide bombers, it’s a tool for convincing them to die. This doesn’t mean religion is the reason you’re bombing. Religion is a how not a why (except for in the minds of some pawns, which I’ll allow is true).
Groups against Jews have existed in the area before Israel and Palestine were established.
People blissfully forget that when they believe defending yourself justifies all means.
Christian zionists maybe, but Jewish zionists are doing this because hamas murdered Israeli civilians in a terrorist attack. Nothing religious about revenge.
Holy land my ass. Where does it say it's okay to kill people in their holy texts? They literally have one commandment against murder (thou shall not kill. Anyone? Anyone?). Genocide much?
As far as Islam goes, murder is again a top sin. In the Qur'an. How can you justify killing people?
I do agree thought that this is about infighting in the region and religion is a pretext to justify atrocities.
It's better translated as "don't murder" than "don't kill" - it uses the Hebrew verb רצח which refers to immoral unlawful killings (i.e. murder), not killing in general.
In Judaism, for example, the rabbis ruled in the Babylonian Talmud that it's OK to kill someone who is actively trying to murder someone else.
As far as where in the Torah it says to kill people, there's a bunch of places. For example, here's one commandment from deuteronomy 21:
Edit: As an aside, the rabbis weren't too keen on actually stoning kids, so they clarified the conditions to make it basically impossible to do.
The Biblical story of the battle of Jericho certainly seems to condone mass murder of civilians if they're of the wrong ethnicity. I'm less familiar with the Quran but I've read many times that it condones killing in certain contexts as well. All Abrahamic religions are rooted in barbarism.
What about "thou shall not kill". Also, there is pretty much historical consensus that all of the Jericho story was fucking made up and slotted into the Bible later. If anything, you should research how the Bible as put together - it's 90% bullshit
The Bible is highly inconsistent. If you want a justification for killing people, it's there. If you want a justification for condemning killers, it's there, too. Whether any part of it is historical is irrelevant; what matters is that people believe in it and use it to guide their actions (or at least rationalize them after the fact).
Abrahamic religions have always been extremist in their nature. If you read history before Christianity you could already see these people were batshit.
Bro. All major religions (except Hinduism/buddhism) are basically a rehash of the same shit the originated in the Sumner River Valley in Mesopotamia. They are all batshit insane - christians included - the only difference is the tech level.
Yeh
It's not motivated by religion, it's motivated by real estate, Israel does business and has Allied with other Islamic nations and organizations.
From the Hamas Covenant itself:
https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp
Also see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judgement_Day_in_Islam
I guess Israel stealing houses from Palestinian land is part of this so called religious war.
Do you think ruthlessly killing civillians is helping anyone to unsteal anything?
Bruh, you missed the point of this discussion
How so? If that's the main issue Palestinians have with Israel then they need to come up with a better plan than terrorism.