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PSA: Lemmy.ml is not Lemmy
(sh.itjust.works)
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this post was submitted on 28 Jun 2023
257 points (97.4% liked)
Fediverse
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A community to talk about the Fediverse and all it's related services using ActivityPub (Mastodon, Lemmy, KBin, etc).
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Lemmy feels as a aplha/beta product that we ar all testing right now. Nothing wrong with that, in fact, I like Lemmy more then Reddit. But you cannot expect everyone to love it right now.
For Reddit its clear: you sign up, you search for a community and you subscribe.
Here, you sign up (if you don't get the spinning wheel). You search for a community. Oh, it is on another instance. What is a instance? Then you browse and see different Lemmy websites. You get confused, you heard something about Fediverse but what is it?
Also, there is no karma what important is for many users. Mod tools are extremly limited and all the apps you can use on mobile are in alpha/beta/in development.
There should be a easy to understand welcome page upon sign-up and I think this needs to be prioritized if we want to welcome (more) mainstream users. The post that explains how Lemmy works on c/lemmyworld doesn't cut it.
Karma is important? The only "use" for it is to do what? users farm it so adding karma or something similar would just make this place worse
Now, that said, there are ways to game those things too, but that’s the concept and some of the bigger benefits.
I still receive PMs every once in a while from random people on Reddit thanking me for comments that I've posted years ago. Those comments have less than 20 karma combined. I also have a comment saying "Nice." which contributes nothing and is sitting at almost 3000. Karma is meaningless.
Nice.
Have an internet point
Nice.
A picture of a kitten in the appropriate general forum or a statement agreeing with the general opinion on a top comment on some politcal forum will get many times more Karma than a post on an expert forum that took 30 minutes to validate and write and is anchored on a decade of domain expertise.
Beyond it's utility (for commercial social media sites) as a gamification element (a score, which incentivises people compete with each other in producing easilly digestible content that pleases the general population in a forum - which, note, doesn't mean its correct, well researched or anchored in genuine domain knowledge), Karma, at least as done in Reddit, is near useless.
Maybe some kind of per-forum Karma or just a per-forum summary of the reception of past posts for a user might be useful, but "score"-Karma just indicates the ability to produce lots of content (so, produced quickly, hence almost certainly not validated) which is popular in large forums (which are invariably the generic ones).
I like the idea of a karma or score on a per community basis. I'm reminded of the web forms that Reddit replaced; the karma-like systems some of them had worked pretty well.
I'm new and know nothing, but doesn't not having karma make it less attractive to bots? If there's nothing to farm...
Bots farmed karma on reddit because mods on some subs tied rights to participation to minimum karma. So bots were sent elsewhere, where mods were more relaxed, and farmed until they reached the target sub's karma requirement. Then the accounts were sold to advertisers and astroturf campaigns to sway posts or sell up/down votes.
Without karma there's no incentive to do any of this. I'm sure there are spammers and farmers thinking how to exploit lemmy right now. But just not having karma is a massive advantage. I still think that admins and mods should be able to see some user stat that aggregated bad behavior. Like number of removed posts, removed comments, downvotes, blocks from other users and bans from communities and instances. That way they could decide their actions based on the user reputation, as trolls and spam accounts would accrue a bad reputation really fast, and would encourage users to engage in the moderation process.
True, not having karma is detrimental for advertisers and excellent for users. Let's hope it never gets introduced.
In the r/CRSRacing2 sub (which I mod, kinda, until I can't anymore) the karma is used to stop new joiners to ask the standard questions that are answered in the 1st post the get to see... (pinned)
But that's about the only use I can think of. (other then useless bragging rights)
I'm not a karma whore, otherwise I would not post on Lemmy. But when you post something and you see that people agree with it is nice to see. I do not see the problem with karma.
I think there's a difference between upvotes and karma. Seeing upvotes on a particular post is nice. Having a score of the sum of all your upvotes and having it displayed to everyone is a different matter, in my opinion. I feel like it gets taken as a gauge of the quantity/value of a person's contributions, when there are low-effort ways of gaining karma, hence the problem some may have.
Its a gamification tactic to keep people addicted to Reddit. It's definitively not a good thing, in my opinion
This is aggravated on Reddit by karma based moderation, e.g. minimum karma to post. This resulted in bots that repost popular content and / or copy popular comments to farm karma so they can bypass these tools.
Having moderated on Reddit, there's a good reason for min karma to post. It cuts spam account posting massively.
I have no doubt it used to work, but if you've ever browsed /popular or /all, it doesn't work any more. Bots farm karma for a few weeks, then hits 30 or 40 different communities with the same crypto spam. The bot gets banned, and another takes it place.
I agree!
Doesn't seeing upvotes on a certain post, as it is now, give you that feeling?
It does. But as I said it is not a really important feature for me. It is 'nice to see' but nothing more than that.
User engagement is important, and karma is one way of driving that engagement. Pretending something's not important from your high horse because you don't understand it just makes you look like a spez.
gamification does drive engagement, though not necessarily the right kind.
In my obervation things that incentivise people to produce lots of simple content to please the masses (and hence net lots of social-media-game-points) significantly decrease the signal-to-noise ratio of the site, with the result that when people are actually trying to find some information or figure something out (rather than just seeking mindless entertainment) they have to wade through lots and lots of meaningless. ignorant and low-effort fluff to find it, and it might not even be there because the kind of people producing the quality (measured in knowledge terms, not "production quality") content have left.
Just look at Youtube.
User engagement is important, yes, but since we do not have ad targets here, I think most people are okay with less content as the cost of the overall quality being higher. At least that is my hope.
To be fair Reddit felt like a beta product for it's entire lifespan too
yeah I remember the reddit interface being uninuititve, confusing, and really hard to learn when I started out. I just got used to it
aa
Exactly. It's not a flaw, it's a litmus test. If someone is not willing to figure it out, then they're probably not the kind of people most would like to have a conversation with in here.
I have never cared about reddit karma. According to someone in reply to my saying I'll be gone July 1, "You have over a million comment karma. You'll never go, you live here." Well, all it took was an easy link in Plumbing for me to find and join my fellow Lemmings. I agree it should be an easier and clearer process to join, though!
I have accounts as far back as when Reddit became public and probably millions of karma across them. I eventually started cycling though new accounts every year to leave old baggage behind and get a fresh take on the place.
Karma and accounts are meaningless and karma was a nice way to trick your mind into valuing them way more than you should.
Well yeah. I'm sure they had a plan for growth. And I'm also sure Reddit screwed that up. They're doing their best.
It is an alpha product. That's why the version number starts with a 0.
I... have a guide in my instances sidebar explaining those concepts to people.
You cant possibly expect people to take on the heavy onus of glancing slightly to the right. /s
You are giving more credit then I normally do. I have just started to assume people can't read at all.
I'd be so mad at you right now if I could read what you wrote.
It needs to be a pop-up and pop-under ad to get their attention, then the close button needs to be tiny and in a different part of the window to really keep their attention, and then it needs to loudly read the text of the window contents to make absolutely sure they've gotten the message.
Failing all this the text needs to be animated in an obnoxious way until they put their cursor/finger in the ad space so they really read it in case their audio is muted. /s