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this post was submitted on 04 Nov 2023
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Sadly, there is no way forward. The leaders of both sides want the complete elimination of the other.
So remove the leaders of both sides.
Unfortunately Hamas hasn't held a single election since they were elected in 2006, and Netanyahu is looking similarly autocratic. The recent escalation is only going to make both sides more antagonistic.
In other words, this shit ain't going away any time soon.
Why should hamas keep down their arms when they see what is happening in disarmed Westbank?
Unarmed protest is always an option. It's a harder option, but it is an option.
Hamas could keep their weapons, and target actual military targets in Gaza.
Israel already withdrew from Gaza in '06, but Hamas is happy to launch rockets at civilian targets in Israel.
Hamas could launch rockets at civilian targets in Israel from non-civilian locations in Gaza, instead of using schools and hospitals.
Hamas has consistently picked the most hostile options because Hamas doesn't just want a free Palestine, Hamas wants the destruction of Israel and rejects any territory existing as an Israeli state. Gaza isn't even fully isolated by Israel, but Egypt wants nothing to do with Hamas either.
I'm not even saying armed resistance is wrong, but what Hamas does is. And yes, Israel's government is also just as wrong, if not more so.
You must be new to the world then.
Why shouldn't Hamas continue armed resistance? Westbank is the living example of what happens when resistance dwindles. Israhell takes all. Simple.
Do you think an armed Westbank would fair any better?
Yes. If Arabs had helped they'd have their own state by now. But the monarchies helped suppress and kill Palestinian state hood because they are afraid of what the Levant Arab mindset represents. They are afraid of both islamist and secular Levant arab politics because they represent unity beyond borders.
Exactly. I've been recently thinking that maybe Israel and Palestine become a new country run by the world. It becomes a neutral globally enforced and patrolled market or exchange. Almost like a U.N. country, but somehow better because the U.N seems like a fucking joke. I'm not sure exactly what I mean here, but essentially, the world removes the two and force them to be one.
Even though it is complex, there are obvious crimes, let alone war crimes happening there. Looking at you IDF with your repeated bombing of civilians and the wounded.
I think you've just created a tinderbox of like...well...biblical proportions.
The UN is a pull organization. It has to request forces & money for operations. No nation or nation collective in their right mind would want to shell out the billions required to basically occupy the region, even with Jerusalem.
Make it a global trade hub. All nations will have an interest. With global trade comes investment, and the next thing you know, this small patch of the earth is the most valuable piece on it.
So make a place a global trade hub in theory can be as simple as saying it is so and watching every country trade there, only in one's imagination.
So now the region is going to be made into a great Singapore for the Mediterranean using billions of dollars of tax money from nations including Egypt, Turkey, Greece, Cyprus, etc?
That's not a global trade hub. That's a globally subsidized tax haven. Whose long-term stability Congress from the whim of nations like the USA, China, Russia, the EU, Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc...
With that, it would be infinitely easier and more attractive for any nearby nation to create a special economic area to handle regional trade & take the jobs, and the best part? This would be funded by the respective nation itself.
The way you describe it is a tax haven. Make it not so.
This is almost an appealing idea in a parallel universe where religion doesn't exist, but unfortunately that's not the one we live in. This conflict is one that extends to nearly every avenue, but at it's core, it's a religious one. Unless we're ready as a global community to finally denounce religion and call the practice of it a silly and fruitless endeavor, which to be clear, we aren't, then we're never going to get anywhere pretending we can ignore the religious aspect of it. And that includes your utopian suggestion, which aside from all of its other very real problems would also likely enrage an enormous religious segment of the world who would see some of their holiest lands reduced to mere merchants dens. Even if you perhaps try to protect the religious sites, now you're effectively enforcing a concept of religious sanctity on the global community, which is no less likely to offend.
Your idea is well-intended and nice to think about, but unfortunately unrealistic for many reasons, starting on the ground floor with problem of religion.
Yes, that's why we don't stop trying. I might not make a difference, but maybe the next generation or the next after that. The point is I'm not going to stop trying. There is no answer that everyone is going to like, but there is an answer that will help everyone. I mean Israel IS man made.
This is the answer and is being downvoted with no better suggestions. If you don’t have solutions and only criticism, you’re part of the problem.
Criticism, constructively made, helps avoid bad ideas, and makes good ones better. But you don’t always know the better way when you see a bad one— I don’t need to know how to build a boat to know a screen door won’t float.
Part of the problem is one side having a desire for autonomy, and limited, at best sense of self-determination. Robbing them and the state they have grievance with of both their autonomies and capacities for self-determination doesn’t seem like a good answer to the problems they both have.
That's why you remove all the sides. Corporations already act without boundaries. They actually benefit from country boundaries ie: manufactured in China for cheap and sold in America for massive profit. Corporate interest is what is against no country boundries.
I agree. But downvotes to a legitimate solution without criticism or suggestions is pointless and contributes nothing to the discussion. I don’t care if you even suggest nuking the entire area. Just own it and defend your opinion.
Eh… I think I might care about somebody suggesting nuking the entire area. Not all ideas are created equal, and not all ideas are worth expressing.
I agree that not all ideas are equal, but disagree about their expression. Discourse and communication is the only way we learn and become better people. If I’m wrong, which happens too often, I want someone to be able to explain why. I’d rather the racists hurl slurs, so they can exposed and taught, then to stay silent and never be confronted.
I think the answer lies in between our statements, as absolutes have an absolutely thin margin for accuracy.
Intrusive thoughts are a thing, and they introduce thoughts of violence in pacifists, and racism in the tolerant. We don’t get these ideas because we want them or believe in them, and, from my perspective, giving them voice grants them power or legitimacy they never would have had otherwise.
But this could be an exception to your position sitting in a cutout you assumed in the expression of it.
No, we absolutely do not nuke the area. That's what Buttholeyahu wants to do. You know the corrupt leader of Israel. What about America, yeah there's a shitload of corruption here too and it's still wrong.
Another thought that I had was having international governing bodies get together and force Israel to pay for the relocation, education, housing, and UBI for every single Palestinian citizen for the remainder of their lives if they would agree to peaceful relocation to another host country. This is a much less preferable idea to the previously mentioned one, but it seemed like a potentially feasible one.
Forced migration, which this would be, is a bad idea, as has been born out repeatedly through history.
To that last point, that land is not interchangeable, and any assumption that it is is remaining ignorant of some of the desires of the parties involved.
I could go on, but I don’t think that would add to discourse. This is a hard problem, renewed with every moment of violence. I don’t believe we should expect any of the grievances each side has stacked up to be let go of without honouring their non-violent desires.
I’d just take Israel paying for their relocation.
@TokenBoomer
If you think you can reduce the solution to this problem (or even a proper description of the problem itself) into a quick reply on a web forum, you're part of the problem.
Honestly, everyone I've seen weigh in on this has fucked it up, on all sides, at all times, going all the way back.
Maybe a bunch of armchair geniuses should stay out of it, unless they're willing to drop what they're doing and go over there to help. Meddling from external parties is part of how this got so fucked up (over and over and over).
The problem is asshole leaders are being petty little brats. There is a solution, but both parties involved are being selfish assholes and the citizens end up dying and suffering. There are easy solutions to everything when you remove the angry assholes.
A child knows right from wrong until they are corrupted by an adult. The answer is easy. The evil ones who benefit are making it hard.
While you armchair genius. No insight. No congregation of minds to develop even a strategy of a path forward. Just criticism for those who want to make the world better. Pathetic. I assume you’re commenting from Gaza because you went over there to help.
Edit: That was reactionary and uncharacteristic. Some of us want to learn from each other and try to understand the situation to build a consensus for what a solution might look like.
@TokenBoomer
Well done; you missed the point entirely, slung some useless mud, and figured out a way to turn it into self- praise. You should run for office.
Everyone stop what you're doing at look over here at... "TokenBoomer"... they'll get to the bottom of this, on a web forum, deep in a thread with... Hey! 5 boosts! We're almost there, I can feel it.
Like and subscribe, thoughts and prayers.
Fuck thoughts and prayers. They have done nothing. Thoughts and prayers are tools of the usless and inept.
@Reality_Suit
I agree, I was being sardonic/sarcastic :p
Sorry, it wasn't directed at you, just a response to thoughts and prayers. I didn't intend for it to sound harsh at you.
I understood your point. I just don’t agree with it. This is a social space. We can only learn by participation. My statement could have been phrased better. But I still agree with the sentiment. I’m no one special and have no misconceptions about solving the world’s problems. But I do have opinions, and enjoy learning from other’s perspectives.
Exactly, change the leader or change the leader
It's a never-ending organic entity. You have to keep at it The problem with the insanity analogy is that it takes a billion times to do something sometimes before even beginning to see the start of a change.
Take away their toys and put them in time oot.
Ah. Yes. That's the easy way to do it.
And make sure they are both secular.
Lol not true. Palestine disarmed in the Westbank and got nothing except brutal apartheid and evictions as a result.
And we can stop giving them money unless they start playing nice.
It's not the government who is settling the West Bank. Yes, it is their policy, but it's regular Israeli citizens who are killing Palestinians, burning their homes down or taking their homes from them and driving them away.
I mean, the government is incentivizing it and enabling it.
Settlers wouldn't settle the West Bank if the Israeli military wasn't protecting them. The government is absolutely the problem.
Go try and take someone's home by force. It won't go well. But it will go a lot better when it's sanctioned by an overwhelming military force.
And in turn, Western governments are enabling the Israeli government. If the West sanctioned Israel as hard as they sanctioned Iran or Russia, they'd probably think twice about annexing the West Bank. But instead of sanctions they get weapons.
enact a european style democratic state with no official religious affiliation. problem solved. jews and muslims don't actually hate each other. they live side by side all the time.