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this post was submitted on 29 Nov 2023
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Yep.
Wait, what? Countersteering is about manipulating the contact patch relative to the center of gravity. The side of the tire has relatively no relevance.
@sping From my perspective as a bicyclist, it is the key to understanding counter-steering:
When one is riding the center of the tire, one is in normal steering.
However, when one is riding the *side* of the tire, then counter-steering is happening, and one is *climbing* on the side-ish part of the tire.
That matches the experience.
_ /\ _
Experience is misleading and not only is what you describe not countersteering, it's also not how bicycles steer. The primary input is the angle of turn of the handlebars. The complication is that on a balanced vehicle like a bicycle you can't just point the wheel where you want to go or you'd just fall over to the outside of the turn. So, before you steer where you wan to go, you have to point it in the opposite direction to initiate a lean.
Many people get quite heated, insisting they do not do this on a bicycle, and believe all sorts of other things. But the fact is this is what everyone does and it's the only way to steer a bicycle, it's just that it's quite possible to ride without realizing this is what you're doing.
@sping I now know that there are *2* different, distinct, phenomena, both called "counter steering", that have nothing to do with each-other.
What you describe is what some call counter steering.
What I'm talking about is when you are in the lean, if you lean the bike a bit more, while steering a few degrees *out* from the turning you are doing, while "climbing through the turn on the sidewall", the bike goes 'round like it's on rails, while keeping its center-of-gravity low.
That is what *I*, and some others, mean when talking about "counter steering".
It has nothing whatsoever to do with what one does with the steering when the bike is upright.
And it wasn't the Fornine vid I was remembering, so I've no idea who it was who also means what I mean.
What a shoddy mess that is: the same label for distinct different phenomena, that are similar.
That is the wrong way of making language "work".
Cheers.
_ /\ _
You're certainly tenacious - an entire Wikipedia page telling you the definition, not including your definition, and telling you it's how bicycle steering works doesn't slow you down!
I think rather than arguing with me you should correct Wikipedia and see how far you get. You should also attend to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_and_motorcycle_dynamics, that weirdly doesn't seem to mention your special facts on how bicycle steering works.
@sping I only found counter-steering worked when on road-tires, & leaned waaay over, and from what I've seen of Fortnine, he countersteers waaay leaned over, too.
The turn of the handlebars only is primary when you're upright, not when you're as-near-horizontal-as-you-can-get.
*shruggeth*
It's been many years since I bothered with road-bikes, and arguing it is pointless, obviously: what I'm talking about you aren't describing.
Cheers.
_ /\ _
I have a feeling you're mixing up the direction of the force you have to apply with the angle of the wheel. Also, countersteering is about how you change the radius of your turn, not about what angle you hold on a steady-state turn.
The effects of the round tire profile are a factor that alter the steering angle for a given turn - conceivably even against to the direction you turn, but as you can see from the Wikipedia page linked that's not what the term means.
And ultimately, it's the only way you initiate a turn, no matter how much many people disbelieve it. As the page says "While this appears to be a complex sequence of motions, it is performed by every child who rides a bicycle. The entire sequence goes largely unnoticed by most riders, which is why some assert that they do not do it."
@sping
You see this image, here?
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=motogp+curve&t=fpas&iax=images&ia=images&iai=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia.gettyimages.com%2Fphotos%2Fmoto-gp-driver-italian-max-biaggi-camel-honda-takes-a-curve-during-picture-id3132850
Notice where he's *looking* and notice where he's *steering*.
THIS is what I'm talking about, NOT about the *initiation* of the going-into-turn.
He's looking where he's GOING, his steering is multiple-degrees OUT from the turn he's carving.
Here is another example
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=motogp+curve&t=fpas&iax=images&ia=images&iai=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.roadracingworld.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2Frrw%2Fd0773bff-6dd5-470a-98bf-f6da7b211c2c.jpg
The *reason* you have to steer multiple degrees OUT from the curve you're doing, when you're really leaned-over, is that if you don't, the curve will be waaay too sharp, and you'll flip your bike.
Another example.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=motogp+curve&t=fpas&iax=images&ia=images&iai=https%3A%2F%2Fimmagini.insella.it%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Fnews_anteprima%2F2015%2F04%2Fvale1_1.jpg
In all 3 of those, see the angular difference between where they're looking & where they're steering.
Having done the road-bike version of this, I know from experience, if you haven't done it where you HAVE TO steer out-of the curve you're carving, in order to not-flip-the-bike,
then you don't/won't believe what it actually feels like,
or how you have to fight your natural instinct, until that natural-instinct gets rewritten by experience ( which happens quickly ).
It is WEIRD feeling to be steering to the right, while carving to the left, or vice versa.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=motogp+curve&t=fpas&iax=images&ia=images&iai=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia.gettyimages.com%2Fphotos%2Fbrazilian-moto-gp-rider-alex-barros-takes-a-curve-during-qualifying-picture-id2118832%3Fs%3D594x594
( I'm trying to find the perfect shot: a shot where you're seeing *exactly* in line with the frame of the bike, so you can see the angle of the steering vs the angle of the curve )
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=motogp+curve&t=fpas&iax=images&ia=images&iai=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ofirmx.com%2Fimages%2Fblog%2F2%2Flookthroughtheturn.jpg
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=motogp+curve&t=fpas&iax=images&ia=images&iai=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.venividivici.us%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2018%2F09%2FPieghe-motogp-2-Rossi.jpeg
Look, if it is axiomatic for you that Universe cannot have what I'm describing, then it is ideologically impossible for what I'm saying to be valid, right?
Let's call it quits.
I *never was* talking about initiating a turn, and that apparently is a concept which you reject.
Good Day.