this post was submitted on 06 Jan 2024
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In a magical fairy-tale land, yes, defense alliances shouldn't need to exist.
In reality: NATO is the only reason NATO countries weren't attacked by Putin's act of blatant imperial aggression.
I mean, honestly, the most anti-NATO position is "Russia shouldn't have attacked Ukraine", considering that there was an open question of "Why the fuck is NATO still around?" in some countries before Russia's act of blatant imperialism.
Russia's attack on Ukraine revitalized NATO both in purpose and in popularity. Fucking insane what a self-defeating action that was in terms of international interests on Russia's part.
Agreed, which leads me to believe that this wasn't the primary motivation for Putin in the first place but just good bullshit for his gullible domestic base.
As Naomi Klein spells out in The Shock Doctrine, such manufactured crises provide incentive to produce radical change. In this case:
Putin's consolidation of power and proverbial nights of long knives (or high windows) as he kills off oligarchs and opponents.
Commiting ethnic genocide within his own borders by prioritizing minorities, prisoners, and impoverished to the Frontlines with no hope of survival.
Clamping down on domestic leftism and independent media.
Carrying out the playbook of neo-nazi Aleksandr Dugin and revitalizing the so-called might of the Russian empire.
Putin did think and have fair reason to believe he could seize Ukraine for very little cost both economically and geopolitically.
... But at this point it is all for saving face and legacy. Even if he took Ukraine in the next year (and he likely will never get more than 17% of the initial goals he had), it would almost never be worth it for the damage already done to Russia economically, intellectually, and geopolitically.
How is Nato a defencive alliance? All of it's operations were offensive. That is not even a joke. Yugoslavia and Afganistan... Nato is just a formalization of Eueopean reliance on their US overlord. It beings protection in a same way mafia does - with a hefty price, albeit moral and political, not only financial.
All offensive operations were offensive, sure but the reason there were no defensive actions was that no one is stupid enough to mess with nato.
The biggest benefit of nato though is countering nuclear proliferation and making it so that less countries develop and possess word ending doomsday devices. This means the chances of us nuking ourselves back to the stone age are somewhat smaller.. So that's something I guess
These interventions, barring Yugoslavia, were largely spurred by United Nations votes, meaning NATO was acting as an arm of democratic votes. Yugoslavia was the exception of course, because both Russia and China would veto intervention of the atrocity taking place there.
Afghanistan triggered Article 5, which is the entire point of the defensive alliance.
NATO was literally losing support until the moment Russia invaded and made it relevant. NATO doesn't make some mafia structure as you suggest; the institution itself isn't even chaired by the US right now and the defense forces and military production are still largely in independent control of each member. This isn't some warlord setup; it's a voluntary club with a pretty explicit charter.
The fact that Afghanistan triggered Article 5 should tell you everything you need to know
In the end the whole thing was botched, but the US was attacked and said individuals must harbor behind some nation-state.
In what world do you think a counterattack is not justified?
As I explained: Not a mafia.
Yeah cause Russia is a real danger to the world with their 50-year-old equipment, ooohhh so scaaryyy. Ukraine entering NATO was the reason Putin needed to justify his aggression, that's the reality. USA should stop trying to be world hero, but this has nothing to do with heroism, war is very lucrative for them, specially when is very far from their territory. I'll say it again, fuck NATO and their bullshit, is not about protection of allies, it's about expanding power and influence as much as possible.
Ukraine never joined NATO, goofball.
Are you high or something? Think this through for just a fucking second, will you?
NATO comes about as a VOLUNTARY Defensive Alliance to protect against aggressors.
Because a house decides to go in on a mutual pact with their neighbor that if an intruder invades their SOVEREIGN land, they both will meet that AGGRESSOR with overwhelming force...
... You somehow think it's fine for the burglar to break in because they put defensive security measures in place and instead should just leave the door unlocked...?
This is the dumbest fucking thing I've heard in a long time and basically means to cave to dictators outright.
Also, did you forget that Russia once had its own equivalent called the Warsaw Pact? Given your complete lack of knowledge demonstrated here, I doubt it. So what's stopping them? Oh, there's no legitimate threat and Russia is a shithole that has nothing to leverage, hence its dissolution.
Ironically, NATO strengthened because of Putin's actions lmao.
Ukraine never joined but NATO wanted them eventually, as it was getting really close allies surrounding Russia.You can’t say they weren’t trying to extend military influence to all possible Russian borders. Imagine what would happen if China tried to make a military alliance with Mexico and Canada, just to be safe cause you never know, lol. No I don’t think it justifies Putin actions at all, but it was definitely a big deal. The Russian invasion is very wrong but NATO did help in escalating the situation.
Yeah, I know about Warsaw Pact, but that was a very different time and situation, one where even NATO actually made sense. I lack knowledge of many things, but at least I'm not a dumb ass bitch who thinks NATO has a reason to exist besides intimidation of countries that refuse to be exploited by the West.
Ok. So let's forget the fact that you fucked up and either (a) lied about Ukraine being in NATO, or (b) were too uninformed to know they weren't.
What is more astounding to me is that it doesn't dawn on you that Ukraine intentionally DIDN'T join NATO so as to prevent their larger aggressive neighbor from invading... YET THEY DID ANYWAY.
So let's look at it another way: If Mexico was actually afraid of the USA, then I would have no problem with them joining a defensive alliance. But why would Mexico contribute 2% of their GDP for a nonsensical reason? Why would I or USA care remotely? The only reason to care is if we actually had intentions of invading a weaker adversary BEFORE they were buddied up with a larger nation.
These arguments are absolutely terrible and full of logical missteps. Your complete ignorance is part of the problem that strong-men dictators exploit. Educate yourself. You are very, very naive about Russia and Putin's plans. Clearly, you've never read about the Foundations of Geopolitics by Putin's right-hand man.
I'm not reading that, I just wanted to make you angry for calling me dumb and from the size of this essay I guess I accomplished that. Good luck on your future arguments with people on the internet. Bye.
You're in denial and your ignorance is getting people killed, so sorry if that sort of willful ignorance pisses me off as few things can do. That you won't read it proves you have no interest in self-improvement. Good night.
My ignorance is killing people? LMAO!! Dude I have no political or military power, I'm just a random internet nerd, cmoon. Just tell me to fuck off and get on with your life. Is not a matter of self-improvement, just different views. I'm from South America, we have a long history of abuse from the USA and their friends. I'll never see NATO as something good.
Right. We've already established: You're ignorant, and don't want to learn. You were so ignorant you didn't even know Ukraine wasn't in NATO — LMAO!
But at the end of the day, yes, ignorance like yours is distorting the narrative because people like you just aren't exactly... Deep thinkers. And your ignorance gets exploited to excuse atrocities of dictators and spur inaction. But alas, I know these words are lost on you.