this post was submitted on 07 Jun 2023
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Say what you will about reddit, at least an established subreddit was the place to gather on the topic, ie r/technology etc.

With Lemmy, doesn't it follow that similar communities on different instances will simply dilute the userbase, for example !technology@lemmy.ml and !technology@beehaw.org. How do we best use lemmy as a (small c) community when a topic can be split amongst many (large C) Communities?

This is an earnest question, in no way am I suggesting lemmy is inferior to reddit. I'm quite enjoying myself here.

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[–] PriorProject@lemmy.world 5 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

Say what you will about reddit, at least an established subreddit was the place to gather on the topic, ie r/technology etc.

This premise on which your question is based isn't actually true though. There's /r/technology and also /r/tech. There's /r/DnD and also /r/dndnext. As of recently, for some reason there are like 35 nearly identical amitheasshole subreddits with different names.

I feel like what you're observing is just that reddit communities are mature, people have had time to gravitate to whichever community is more active or has better quality moderation and so there is generally a "winner" sub with more participation because... unless there's a major problem with the bigger sub it tends to be more interesting than a less well-trafficked sub.

Lemmy, in contrast, is still fairly wild-west. Most communities are not very active and have only a few subscribers. If a competing community with an overlapping topic appears, folks are willing to subscribe to it just in case it takes off. If Lemmy continues to retain a healthy number of users, I expect in most cases that consolidation would set in unless there were major differences in moderation policy or something else that splits the community into factions that align across server or community boundaries... and over time you'll see a similar layout of one or two dominant communities and a long tail of tiny ones that few pay attention to.

[–] blitzen@lemmy.ml 0 points 2 years ago (7 children)

I thank you for your response, and generally think you are right. Perhaps I should rephrase my question a bit to: is the existence of multiple communities on a given subject a feature of Lemmy (perhaps even unique to Lemmy) we should expect and embrace, or do you think communities coalescing into few/one will occur naturally?

[–] PriorProject@lemmy.world 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Perhaps I should rephrase my question a bit to: is the existence of multiple communities on a given subject a feature of Lemmy (perhaps even unique to Lemmy) we should expect and embrace, or do you think communities coalescing into few/one will occur naturally?

My take is that Reddit, Lemmy, and any system that allows non-admins to create subreddits/sublemmies/communities/whatever pretty much plays out similarly:

  • Overlapping communities are a feature of lemmy, but also reddit.
  • They are not unique to lemmy.
  • People DO embrace overlapping communities to work out differences in moderation policies, to escape annoying culture, to achieve a smaller/cozier feel. But all this is hard work, and generally... unless there's a reason to do extra hard work to maintain a smaller duplicate community...
  • Communities coalesce into few/one naturally.

I don''t feel like any of this is really different in the fediverse, the only difference is that the community name is longer tech@lemmy.ml instead of /r/tech. But tech@lemmy.ml and tech@beehaw.org isn't functionally any different than /r/tech and /r/otherTechSucksOursIsGood. The social dynamics that determine community participation play out in almost exactly the same way in both cases.

The few exceptions are with a lemmy instance that doesn't federate to any/most instances and has limited account signups. That sort of lemmy instance could create intentionally separate communities that are really tightly controlled. So you could talk about tech news exclusively with computer-science students at your university or something. But at that point it's less like lemmy the fediverse app and more like a standalone bulletin-board system like phpbb or something. For almost all lemmy instances and almost all communities on them, overlapping lemmy communities behave very similarly to overlapping subreddits.

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[–] TheOneCurly@lemmy.theonecurly.page 3 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

I think people, including u/spez, are not remembering how fluid a lot of subs were on reddit. The large subs grew to where they were by luck and good moderation, they weren't/aren't immune to upset, and reddit maintains/ed several smaller competing communities for every main one (games, gaming, truegaming). The same will happen here eventually but we need time to see who's actually running the best communities, not whoever got to the name technology on the largest instance first.

Edit: sorry for necroing this thread, I didn't notice how old it was.

[–] albert@lemmy.sysctl.io 2 points 2 years ago

Maybe that's a good idea. Going to /C/technology shows a view of all /c/technology sub's that the instance is aware of :)

Posting to /C/technology would just post to your instances /c/technology

Or maybe differentiate between communities and topics? /t/technology aggregates all the communities around technology? That would be cool IMO

[–] icyboyy@lemmy.icyserver.eu 1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

This is a great idea but I see problems with it. Someone has to define the topics but this can be done by name matching. The bigger problem is the decentralized nature of Lemmy. Every server has to scan every other server for the communities to create a topic. Now let’s say we have 10 servers and each of them will have to fetch from the other 9 servers the communities list. This would already be 90 requests sent global. Now scale this up to 1000 and a single server will have to send 999 requests and respond to 999.

Edit: Currently we have over 1426 servers

[–] Krusty@feddit.it 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

It's a very good thing to avoid what happened on Reddit that a big istance is moderated by people that don't think democratically and rule against other people's will deleting posts and banning everyone they don't like.

With federation, you can choose the instances and communities you like the most, the ones with better moderation and so the kindest one will probably prevail :)

[–] Blue@kbin.social 0 points 2 years ago (2 children)

This assumes that power doesn't corrupt and that the big "kind" communities don't eventually turn bad.

[–] Krusty@feddit.it 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

That's exactly the point: if they become "bad", we can always move to another one with the same name but on another instance

[–] seirim@lemmy.ml 3 points 2 years ago

This is such a great feature and advantage.

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[–] psysok@beehaw.org 0 points 2 years ago

Follow both and just post to whichever one you prefer? Eventually certain communities will tend to coalesce, but it isn't a terrible thing if there are multiple options either.

[–] veroxii@lemmy.world 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I think over time some apps will add functions to allow you to visually merge them. But purely at a UI level. They will still be separate instances on the backend.

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[–] Kaldo@beehaw.org 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I think there's been talk of implementing "multireddits" so you can combine them in your own feed but who knows when it's coming. I personally think it's good to have the communities as segmented as possible, if one goes to shit then you can easily just stop participating there and move to others.

[–] blitzen@lemmy.ml 0 points 2 years ago

A 'multi-community' feature would be welcome.

[–] Hiyoihoi@lemmy.one 0 points 2 years ago

But yes good question overall from what i can tell the more posts one community gets the more attraction it will pull. Reddit would of been similar in the early days when multiple communities existed for the same thing.

[–] Olgratin_Magmatoe@lemmy.world 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (2 children)

In my opinion, it makes most sense that they get treated like the same community.

If you subscribe to "c/memes", you will see the posts from any communities on any instances that's name is "memes".

And if any individual one is causing issue, you or your instance can ban the problem instances' version.

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[–] JshKlsn@lemmy.ml 0 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Say what you will about reddit, at least an established subreddit was the place to gather on the topic, ie r/technology etc.

There are plenty of subs that have branched off due to corrupt mods and other things.

/r/meirl and /r/me_irl

/r/web_design and /r/webdesign (merged now, though)

/r/gaming, /r/truegaming

but I do agree with you. It definitely hurts to have communities fragmented. Especially if new users don't understand how to view or subscribe to communities outside their instance, they may never see the more popular community on a different instance.

[–] gnoop@lemmy.ml 0 points 2 years ago

I think changing the default view for content and communities would help. Branching off is one thing and there may be a valid reason for the split. However, I wonder how many current duplicates are accidental. The current setup for Lemmy is to view Local communities by default. An intentional creation of a separate community for a reason is one thing.

Fragmentation of the communities will probably end up happening with time but I don't know that it's best to have things fragment early on when communities and those identities are still, in some cases, in the early stages of development.

[–] FuzzyDunlop@slrpnk.net 0 points 2 years ago

The "true" prefix opens a lot of subs and points to a problem with moderation and flash popularity.

At least with lemmy we can easily go to another instance if a mod goes banana.

[–] PorkrollPosadist@lemmy.ml 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

How do you deal with r/TOTK and r/Tears_of_the_Kingdom?

[–] sup@lemmy.ca 0 points 2 years ago

Great analogy. Same with r/RingsOfPower and r/LOTR_on_Prime. One community doesn't like the show and the other one does. You join whichever most aligns with your preference.

[–] CookieJarObserver@feddit.de 0 points 2 years ago (3 children)

Let them be. There are 20 different memes subreddits as well the best one will win.

[–] cavemeat@beehaw.org 0 points 2 years ago

You're right, I assume social darwinism will be at play

[–] falconfetus8@lemmy.ml 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

No, the one on Lemmy.ml will win, since that's the first place new users are going.

[–] CookieJarObserver@feddit.de 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Thats not necessarily true. Behaw is also very big, feddit de as well. And there is no "winning" you can just have multiple...

[–] FuzzyDunlop@slrpnk.net 0 points 2 years ago (6 children)

I read strange stuff about beehaw, the admin going primadonna or somethin'...

[–] CookieJarObserver@feddit.de 0 points 2 years ago

Hm... Ok idk about that, but there are many other instances

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[–] RoundSparrow@lemmy.ml 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (3 children)

I don't think people know (how end-users will cope with the distributed choices of Lemmy). Reddit 2023 is nothing at all like Lemmy. One could be considered a household name for regular users of the Internet, the other a return to something more like FidoNet.

I come from the BBS days of the early 1980's and even social media radio before that. I come from IRL user group meetings, held at public library and after-hours company meeting rooms. It has always bothered me that current-day subreddits have mostly no identity to the moderators and that moderation is often behind the scenes.

I guess it's like "corporate experience" that people expect this day in society... that you can walk into a generic franchise chain bar and grill and not really care who the owner/operator and bouncers are of your hangout. Anyone can start a topic/ conversation and there is just some anonymous janitorial crew who is supposed to clean up the overflowing mess if (non-venue) spam or hate messages enter into the space.

The mechanisms of who pays for the venue and the moderators also was a topic most people never bothered to think about. Like it was some taxpayer-funded city park and perhaps the admin police might spot check if anyone was causing a tragedy in that there commons. But reality is that it was a profit-seeking venue charging a cover charge in the form of selling copies of your contribution and changing the tone of your meeting space by controlling the jukebox that visitors hear in terms of advertising messages inserted into the conversation space.

Lemmy seems small, owner/operator focused, and you get a sense that each instance is like some small bar and grill where you can come and meet some strangers or friends to discuss some topics under house rules. Your tips help pay for the hosting and the jukebox isn't piped in memes from advertisers.

I remember when Reddit had known owners with known ideals, but that was very long ago. I've found making it big (with the associated wealth) changes people. One owner even committed suicide over his society ideals about sharing information. Ultimately I feel like a lack of topic participation by the moderators and owners alike made people thoughtless as to their own role in building a human community and people often felt like they were fighting machines and code.

sorry if this meandered off topic, but lately I've had some long-time friends ask me 'what is Reddit" since it is in the news lately, and I find it hard to explain what Reddit used to be (before new Reddit and the addition of images/video) vs. the corporate-like entity we know today that our contributions and participation helped empower over the past 17 years. I've used it mostly daily for all that time, and I have been unhappy with society's dehumanizing direction for too many years.

/ramble from a disturbed mind.

[–] Barbarian@lemmy.reckless.dev 0 points 2 years ago (3 children)

I hear you man. I went from active contributor to mostly lurking on Reddit, and it wasn't even a conscious choice. Gradually, everything became very mechanistic. I knew what the top few comments would be before going to the comments. The churn became cyclic in nature.

After just a few days here, it was actually a little disconcerting how antagonistic and hostile people there are in the comments section. That's just how people communicate, on a hair-trigger from flamewar.

I recognize your username, I saw what you wrote about SQL scaling. Can you imagine recognizing a username in a major subreddit in the reddit of today?

The dichotomy between the big communities which people subscribe to from all over Lemmy and the small meta/announcement/server issue communities for each individual instance is gonna be interesting to see develop as the userbase increases. Kinda like the difference between seeing people from your street everyday, then many more less familiar people in the city center.

[–] nickajeglin@lemmy.one 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I agree with what both of you are saying about the antagonism of the community writ large, but I am going to miss the small subs. There are dozens of them I subbed that have 500 or 1k users and are really tightly focused communities. They still have that feel from 2010ish reddit.

I'm ready to close the book on reddit as a whole, but I really will miss r/heavyseas and r/obscuremedia and r/theocho and r/desirepath etc.

[–] fossilesque@mander.xyz 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)
[–] nickajeglin@lemmy.one 1 points 2 years ago

This is great news, thank you!

Can you imagine recognizing a username in a major subreddit in the reddit of today?

I have noticed this recognition on large posts on modern reddit, but it's usually for not good reasons, because the poster is just karma whoring.

[–] gnoop@lemmy.ml 0 points 2 years ago

It depends on the subreddit as well. There are some where discussion is expected. /r/nbadiscussion versus /r/nba, for example. The former will get into some good discussions if there's a player looking to be traded. On /r/nba, you'll get a bit of that but you'll also get a few dozen, "He gone," comments.

I appreciate both at various times. I go into /r/nba specifically for the funny takes and will go to /r/nbadiscussion when I'm feeling like reading something more. That said, even /r/nba can get into some pretty impressive posts with stats, diagrams, and excellent breakdowns. It just depends on the day.

I think the funnier times are where you expect one thing and get another. I can go into /r/guitarcirclejerk expecting some light hearted shitposting and end up with a great discussion on one thing or another.

[–] kiwi@lemmy.one 0 points 2 years ago

Thanks for laying out this analogy. I agree with your sentiment and think it extends outside of the internet too. When I think of different scenes in the real world, they feel like they’ve all fallen into either super corporate places where you’re encouraged to spend money or meetup groups with no personality.

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[–] RoundSparrow@lemmy.ml 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

How do we deal with similar communities on different Lemmy instances?

I suggest creating some communities like "FindingTech", and "FindingScience" and "FindingPets" with some similar naming convention - that covers this topic explicitly. That Finding* communities be the place people discuss the various instances and their experiences/ideals.

I could also see someone creating an entire magazine-like website that highlights new and changing communities and new owner/operators on the scene. Also present a tree of links that is organized based on reviews and allows bookmarking. Such data could be passed down to mobile clients or even some kind of webapp page of Lemmy sites.

Reddit was one big monolithic system operating under a multinational corporation jurisdiction. Small time Lemmy instances may be following conventions of a nation that end-users have never visited... it is much more of a "World Wide Web" convention, and you can see it much more in your face in how the language choice is presented to you on every posting you make.

Think about it - how long until owner/operators of Lemmy instances have to deal with DMCA takedown requests for images? Court-ordered disclosure of IP address and browser information? Who is to say that an operator won't just put everyone's IP Address out as public record - there are forums that operate that way. With massive websites like Twitter, Reddit, Facebook - a government seeking copies of deleted comments and IP Address is all behind the scenes and rarely disclosed (and even then, mostly disclosed in news reports that police got a copy of social media messages and had an account shut down after a shooting or other crime).

[–] duringoverflow@kbin.social 0 points 2 years ago

I suggest creating some communities like "FindingTech", and "FindingScience" and "FindingPets" with some similar naming convention - that covers this topic explicitly. That Finding* communities be the place people discuss the various instances and their experiences/ideals.

this is completely different than the issue described. A unified approach on search and/or communities is not being solved by a community where people will suggest other communities.

[–] FuzzyDunlop@slrpnk.net 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Honestly we'd better picking another main instance from scratch. lemmy.ml is federated with a cesspool of russian shills (lemmygrad) and we don't need this, we really don't need them. Nevermind how many people can register on our new instance, more redditors can start new instances as time goes one and still connect to the communities (subs) on our new one. In a way we don't completely escape federation.

The bonus is that if the admins of the new instance go reddit-crazy, we always have the possibility of picking another instance as the main one.

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