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submitted 4 months ago by gabe@literature.cafe to c/foss@beehaw.org

I made a blog post discussing my biggest issues with Lemmy and why I am kind of done with it as a software.

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[-] ptz@dubvee.org 59 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

👏👏👏👏👏

Well said. I don't disagree with a single point you made, and some of it echos concerns I've had since day 1. And extra points for calling out .ml as lemmygrad-lite. I think I've called it exactly that as well.

The only thing I really have to add is on the topic of toxicity. Like you, I'm an instance admin and have a bird's eye view of a lot of behavior patterns. I've recently started wondering how many people are here because they're too toxic for regular social media rather than because they want to be here. I won't guess an actual number, but I would say it's not insignificant.

I'm firmly the latter case: I want to be here, I want this to succeed, and I'm trying to put in the work toward that result. And I've interacted with lots and lots of people in the same boat. But, like you, I'm also growing disillusioned for many of the same reasons.

On the bright side, I've gotten much less rusty as a developer after having to write scrips and tools to fill in the massive gaps in moderation features.

[-] gabe@literature.cafe 24 points 4 months ago

The only thing I really have to add is on the topic of toxicity. Like you, I’m an instance admin and have a bird’s eye view of a lot of behavior patterns. I’ve recently started wondering how many people are here because they’re too toxic for regular social media rather than because they want to be here. I won’t guess an actual number, but I would say it’s not insignificant.

That's unfortunately a big issue with alternative social media platforms and without tools to combat them it goes bad really bad. I agree completely.

[-] gabe@literature.cafe 29 points 4 months ago

Honestly coming here and starting my own instance and providing help for other instances and stuff has reignited my long lost love of computers and open source stuff. The passion for it is thankfully coming back.

[-] ptz@dubvee.org 11 points 4 months ago

That was me with developing. I used to do it as my day job before moving to infrastructure - now all I develop at work are scripts and the occasional lookup tool.

I do kinda wish I'd chosen something other than NodeJS to be my daily driver, lol, but it does what I need well enough. Haven't really had a base it can't cover (yet?).

[-] bermuda@beehaw.org 15 points 4 months ago

I once wondered aloud here about if anybody else had noticed a lot of toxic members from certain communities, only to receive replies from members in those communities claiming that it was all fine and there wasn't any toxicity. Then I'd look at their history and notice they were a very toxic person. From my limited point of view I can say there might be some credence to your statement.

[-] Corgana@startrek.website 14 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

I’ve recently started wondering how many people are here because they’re too toxic for regular social media rather than because they want to be here.

Dude yes, I've been thinking the same thing. I worry that users curious to leave reddit are going to go to a big instance, see concentrated worst-parts-of-reddit, and decide it's not for them.

In theory, decentralization enables freedom from the average user being forced to put up with toxicity. But we don't really have that (yet) until the ratio of jerk to non-jerk improves.

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[-] InquisitiveApathy@lemm.ee 9 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

I've recently started wondering how many people are here because they're too toxic for regular social media rather than because they want to be here.

This has largely been my operating assumption as well since day one when I came over during the Reddit API lockdown. I was fairly active on a NSFW alt up until recently and I've actually seen dozens of comments from new users mentioning that the only reason they were here on Lemmy was because they were banned from Reddit and had no other viable options. They were always an asshole to the posters and the reality is that with a lower population of users is that there aren't enough other voices to drown out these people yet and you end up with a feedback loop of toxicity.

[-] ptz@dubvee.org 8 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

the reality is that with a lower population of users is that there aren't enough other voices to drown out these people

Yep. That, plus the jerks are always the loudest among any crowd.

That's one of the big perks of running my own instance. It's been a site rule from the start that it's absolutely not there to be a refuge because you're banned elsewhere. And I do ban toxic accounts (local and federated) very quickly. Lol, if .ml is "Lemmygrad-lite" mine can probably be described as "Beehaw-lite".

[-] halm@leminal.space 25 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

There are a lot of good points here, I appreciate the time you put into it.

As an end user of both Lemmy and Mastodon, it's always an eye opener to see how developers greet user requests and suggestions with curt or snarky replies. Even "Why don't you open an issue on our source tracker" will often effectively shut down suggestions from less tech savvy newcomers.

My own concerns are more on my own level, though. It resonates with me when you write —

The Fediverse has its own existing cultures that thrive here. And when you enter a space that already exists you need to be mindful of that to prevent issues from occurring.

I've seen a few user migration waves, and I think your description of (some) Lemmy users who just want a drop-in Reddit replacement is on point. Mastodon has had its share of Twitterati who surged in trying to recreate their previous circles and tone. Obviously, it's a generalisation but we do need to face the problem.

The transition from a walled garden environment like Reddit or Twitter — moderated by professionals or enthusiasts, and algorithmically curated — to a federated space with carefully cultivated etiquettes will never be like simply picking up a conversation in another UI.

I'd be interested how a project like Sublinks would/could accommodate the existing fediverse cultures, and hopefully bridge the cognitive gap that seems to exist between threadiverse and fediverse?

[-] yarr@feddit.nl 9 points 4 months ago

Even “Why don’t you open an issue on our source tracker” will often effectively shut down suggestions from less tech savvy newcomers.

How should developers handle feature requests? Keep in mind there is a need for the whole team to see the suggestion and it's also good to have a place to gather feedback and further discuss.

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[-] Corgana@startrek.website 21 points 4 months ago

Many users on Lemmy seem actively hostile to the idea of decentralization in a way that feels self defeating. They don’t want a better alternative to Reddit, they just want Reddit 2.0 and attempts to sway them towards something better feels like pulling teeth.

Yes! I don't think it bodes well for general adoption when so much of the Lemmyverse is hosted on two essentially "Reddit 2.0" (by that I mean loosely moderated) instances. Assuming half the population of the Lemmyverse are people banned from Reddit for poor socialization, it means new users considering switching are most likely to first encounter a pure concentrated form of the worst aspects of Reddit userbase.

Beehaw is the only "general" instance I know of who's mods and admins seem to be actually up to the task of keeping their communities from becoming wholly exhausting and it's because they didn't allow themselves to balloon up beyond their ability to self-moderate.

[-] blindsight@beehaw.org 6 points 4 months ago

Beehaw defederating with the biggest open signups Lemmy instance has definitely kept it a lot nicer. There isn't as much content, but it's also a lot less toxic.

[-] moosetwin@lemmy.dbzer0.com 21 points 4 months ago

Does anyone know of any Sublinks instances? The main page for it speaks in present tense, but I haven't found any active instances. (aside from the demo, of course)

I apologize for my stupidity:

this is me

[-] Ategon@programming.dev 20 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

It hasnt been released yet, still working towards parity (but getting there soon)

The first instance using it will likely be sublinks.art and some other instances will be switching over from lemmy when it hits parity like programming.dev and literature.cafe

[-] moosetwin@lemmy.dbzer0.com 10 points 4 months ago

Alright, thanks!

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[-] wargreymon2023@sopuli.xyz 20 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

Domain blocks are always publicly visible.

Mod logs are always publicly visible in the public mod log.

What? It is crucial for the users, not a bug.

[-] gabe@literature.cafe 14 points 4 months ago

It can become a source of targeted harassment, as it has on the rest of the fediverse before.

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[-] nix@merv.news 20 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

These are some really good points. I’m personally more interested in the development of PieFed than SubLinks due to the focus on making it easy to contribute, the developer cares about usability and mod tools, its in Python, and the developer posts dev blogs and answers questions on mastodon https://join.piefed.social/blog/

[-] jgrim@discuss.online 8 points 4 months ago

I'm the founder of Sublinks. I'm happy to answer questions. You can find me on Mastodon @sublinks@utter.online. You're right about the dev blog. We have a weekly Sublinks team meeting, the results of that could go into a weekly dev update. I've just been more focused on coding than community stuff. I'll do better.

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[-] Penguincoder@beehaw.org 17 points 4 months ago

Thank you for sharing your experiences. I feel the same way about Lemmy software, instances, and the Fediverse as a whole. Appreciate your post and efforts.

[-] renard_roux@beehaw.org 10 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

Maybe Sublinks could be(come) that new platform you guys have been searching for, re: Beehaw thinking about leaving Lemmy? 🤔

I just hope it will be compatible with the available Lemmy apps (Voyager in particular) 😓

Edit: Or PieFed I guess 😊

[-] Ategon@programming.dev 10 points 4 months ago

It will have lemmy API compatibility on release so it will be

[-] princessnorah@lemmy.blahaj.zone 16 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

This blog post by a Lemmy user who accidentally uploaded his ID and dealt with the nightmare after describes in great detail the ridiculous steps instance admins need to take to remove images from the backend image server that Lemmy depends on. (as well touches upon the developer behavior aspect I will highlight later.)

~~You misgendered the author of that post, they use they/them pronouns.~~

Edit: I was mistaken about who the author of that post was.

[-] liwott@nerdica.net 16 points 4 months ago

Do they? The linked blog's biography is written with masculine pronouns.

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[-] gabe@literature.cafe 8 points 4 months ago

I couldn't find their pronouns listed anywhere, but it was my bad to assume regardless. Fixed it, my apologies.

[-] Zoop@beehaw.org 14 points 4 months ago

Yes! This blog post is fantastic. I read your article through this archive link (since my phone is being finicky with the direct site) and loved it and I'm glad you wrote it! You totally nailed it on every point and voiced a lot of things I've noticed and concerns I've had.
On the topic of non-anonymous reports: I've definitely already found myself hesitating or declining to make reports I feel should be made purely because they're not anonymous. Sometimes because the people I want to report are admins. I've already had weird situations of people following me around to other posts because they disagree with me and I don't want to add to that type of thing. Although I can understand that there are some potential upsides to being able to tell who is making reports, like to prevent misuse or spam... I dunno.

Thanks a lot for sharing it with us here! and thank you for the warning at the top about mentioning CSAM - and for calling it CSAM and not the other, worse, seemingly more prevelent term. I appreciate it and I appreciate you! :)

[-] Corgana@startrek.website 11 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

On the topic of non-anonymous reports: I’ve definitely already found myself hesitating or declining to make reports I feel should be made purely because they’re not anonymous. Sometimes because the people I want to report are admins.

My instance had a similar situation where a user on a large instance (not beehaw) was reported, and the reports only encouraged the person, who posted the reports publicly and called upon others to join. The admins were slow to deliberate, ultimately took no action, and although I think they mean well, do not strike me as up to the task of running a large social media platform.

Requiring individual users to block the largest instances (and their communities) in order to peacefully use a platform is just Reddit with extra steps. Without decentralization we just have, as the author put it, Reddit 2.0.

[-] jeena@jemmy.jeena.net 14 points 4 months ago

Very interesting post, very long but also interesting. I also agree with most of the points.

But I wonder why there is no mention of /kbin which has been a compatible alternative to Lemmy even during the Reddit exodus. It's also written in PHP which many people should have a much easier time to contribute to than Lemmy's Rust.

[-] Corgana@startrek.website 8 points 4 months ago

I've heard Kbin has been having major issues lately, the single dev is not the most active. There is a fork called mbin which seems promising.

They are different from Lemmy, though, and not for everyone. But variety is good.

[-] Nominel@kbin.run 14 points 4 months ago

I'm relieved to hear you'll still be running your instance despite these issues! Are you thinking of potentially moving the Literature Cafe forums to Sublinks?

I definitely hear you on the moderation difficulties... with the Fediverse being as far-reaching as it is, good moderation tools are essential and it seems like Lemmy simply doesn't have these available.

[-] gabe@literature.cafe 13 points 4 months ago

I will migrate it to sublinks as soon as I can.

[-] Nominel@kbin.run 6 points 4 months ago

OK, I'll stay posted for the new site!

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[-] moosetwin@lemmy.dbzer0.com 10 points 4 months ago

This post summarizes my thoughts on the issues with lemmy perfectly.

[-] Kissaki@feddit.de 9 points 4 months ago

The link offers a download instead of serving an HTML? I'm on mobile Firefox (I doubt it matters).

[-] gabe@literature.cafe 8 points 4 months ago

It might be an issue with the activitypub plugin, https://jewy.blog/b/1T try this shortlink version instead

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[-] davehtaylor@beehaw.org 9 points 4 months ago

Many users on Lemmy seem actively hostile to the idea of decentralization in a way that feels self defeating. They don’t want a better alternative to Reddit, they just want Reddit 2.0 and attempts to sway them towards something better feels like pulling teeth.

I keep seeing this, and I don't really understand. Lemmy is a link aggregator that allows users to organize those links into categories/communities/etc, and lets people comment on the links and have discussions about them. From an end-user perspective, that's exactly what Reddit is. So I'm genuinely curious what's meant when people say they don't want Reddit 2.0 from a technical perspective. From a social perspective, the toxicity, brigading, shitposting, etc are definitely not desirable. But with shit moderation tools, those sort of things don't get sorted, and federation just magnifies all of those problems. Though I think disabling voting definitely helps discourage shitposting and low-effort responses.

But I genuinely do think a lot of problems really come down to the fundamentals of federation. And given how many downsides there are to it, I'm not convinced it's actually a benefit at all.

[-] princessnorah@lemmy.blahaj.zone 7 points 4 months ago

Do you mean disabling downvotes? That’s how it is on Blahaj. It definitely makes a difference to the amount of toxicity I think.

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[-] acockworkorange@mander.xyz 9 points 4 months ago

Why a new software though? Why not fork lemmy? Might as well call it Kilmister too. I just don't see why reinvent the wheel, especially since the issue is that of management and not technical.

[-] Lionir@beehaw.org 8 points 4 months ago

The codebase is remarkably not fun to work with according to everyone I've talked to. The language (rust) is also not common for web services so many have no experience with it. These things made people want to start from scratch.

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this post was submitted on 05 Mar 2024
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