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I had this question proposed to me recently, and thought I would give it my best shot. I would love any input you guys have on how I can refine this further, make it more clear, more accurate, more succinct, all that.

Also, this is specifically geared towards Marxist-Leninists and Marxist-Leninist-Maoists, and that understanding of dialectics, just to be clear. I'm not interested in the hyper-orthodox understanding of dialectical materialism.

I don't understand the ins and outs of gravity perfectly, but here goes.

Internal contradiction is what drives all things. This is true for gravity, as much as anything in the world. Gravity could then be analyzed in the framework of the contradictor forces within gravity. What would those forces be?

Well, Einstein's general relativity is probably the best place to start. I will outline the two contradictory forces below.

Again, I don't know a ton about the in's and out's of it, but the way I see it, there are two sets of contradictions at work in "gravity".

First, the contradiction of Mass and Spacetime Curvature. We have the force of attraction, where masses attract each other, but contradictory to that, we also have the resistance of compression, where the curvature of space resists this attraction.

Second, we have the contradiction of Inertia and Graviational Pull. Objects resist changes to their existing state of motion, but the force of attraction seeks to change the motion of objects

In the case of general relativity, I would say the first contradiction is the primary one, since that relationship is what defines the attraction between masses, and the resistances between each one. I would say the second contradiction is the secondary one, since it's still crucial for understanding how gravity works, but, it explains the result of gravitational attraction, rather than the fundamental cause of it.

In the case of the primary contradiction, I would say that the force of attraction is the primary aspect of the contradiction, over resistance to compression, since the attraction of mass to itself is the fundamental reason why spacetime is distorted in the first place. In the secondary contradiction, gravitational pull is of course, the primary aspect there.

Let me know what you think, and thank you.

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[-] lil_tank@lemmygrad.ml 19 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

I'm not completely sure I understand your reasoning, but there's something I was thinking to myself about Einstein and dialectics.

The Newtownian theory was formed at an age where the newest advancements in philosophy and science were made by seeing the world in mechanical interactions and abstract absolute rules. It was opposed to theological thinking so it allowed for massive progress.

Contemporary philosophy goes beyond the enthusiasm of the first modern scientists, and one of the manifestations of this tendency are Hegelian dialectics. Given the socialist orientation of Einstein, it wouldn't surprise me that dialectics were a way of thinking that helped him go beyond the previously established necessity of having bodies touch each other to interact. Einstein surprised its time, not by being a man-computer that solves every equation, but by daring to bend concepts like space and time in a manner that shatters the old vision of a world made of simple little gears that activate each other by physical contact.

[-] Finiteacorn@lemmygrad.ml 15 points 4 months ago

I think I can most charitably describe what I just read as a wild misappropriation of dialectics and physics. Please stop.

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[-] tamagotchicowboy@lemmygrad.ml 13 points 4 months ago

Caudwell's Crisis in Physics does some of this but for quantum mechanics. You'd love the read.

Really its done science first approach then dialectics to examine the environment your project's developed in for anything weird that will diminish understanding, then fix and repeat since there's no such thing as perfection in reality. You don't go in with dialectics first, that won't do you good and just make you overly rigid without proper knowledge and limit your understanding of the situation at hand leading to silly errors. Gotta ground yourself in what is known of reality first.

It is neat for thought experiments for project design too and is a way to break out of the 'its x or y or a mere continuum' to noticing 'gee this doesn't fit my data nor my problem, necessity v sufficiency for instance develops from this line of approach (and others, there are many tools in the tool kit, dia is just one) and is beyond helpful in life sciences.

[-] destructor_rph@lemmygrad.ml 3 points 4 months ago

That's fascinating. Thank you!

[-] darkernations@lemmygrad.ml 12 points 4 months ago

The comments in this thread has made me realise I need to read the following:

  • In Defence Of Materialism by Plekhanov
  • Dialectical Biologist by Lewontin and Lewin

And re-read the Red Sails articles:

  1. https://redsails.org/what-is-dialectics/
  2. https://redsails.org/dialectics/
  3. https://redsails.org/on-dialectics/
[-] QueerCommie@lemmygrad.ml 6 points 4 months ago

The Dialectical Biologist is pretty great, but keep in mind it’s a little outdated, and they didn’t know Lysenko was vindicated.

[-] darkernations@lemmygrad.ml 7 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

Thank you - epigenetics? If you have reading material to share on rethinking Lysenkoism in the 21st century I would be grateful.

[-] QueerCommie@lemmygrad.ml 7 points 4 months ago

I’m not an expert on the topic, but I listened to this, and someone who works in agriculture elaborated how China uses some of his discoveries today. How Lysenko was the guy that got people planting potato eyes instead of the whole potato etc.

[-] darkernations@lemmygrad.ml 4 points 4 months ago

Interesting; thank you!

[-] HaSch@lemmygrad.ml 12 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

You are in the midst of committing a category error. Dialectics is the model that describes changing historical, social, and philosophical systems and processes. Analogies from physics are frequently used to explain how dialectics work, but that doesn't mean dialectics govern physics, only that dialectical thinking has historically been inspired by physical processes.

The logical role that dialectics fulfills in social science is fulfilled in natural science by mathematics. So rather than taking the dialectical method and filling it with natural objects and laws at random, you should study the mathematical relationships between measurable quantities and interpret the dynamic expressed in the equations governing them. I know you might not want to hear this because mathematics is hard, but the only way to understand the inner workings of gravity is to sit your ass down with a book about general relativity and do the exercises.

[-] GarbageShoot@hexbear.net 11 points 4 months ago

No defending the OP more generally, but here's Mao in On Contradiction, emphasis mine:

Changes do take place in the geography and climate of the earth as a whole and in every part of it, but they are insignificant when compared with changes in society; geographical and climatic changes manifest themselves in terms of tens of thousands of years, while social changes manifest themselves in thousands, hundreds or tens of years, and even in a few years or months in times of revolution. According to materialist dialectics, changes in nature are due chiefly to the development of the internal contradictions in nature. Changes in society are due chiefly to the development of the internal contradictions in society . . .

[-] HaSch@lemmygrad.ml 10 points 4 months ago

This is correct, but it's not like there is ever a contradiction between mathematical and dialectical methods. Natural scientists only prefer to work with mathematics because their subject is benign enough to admit mathematical descriptions yielding precise, quantitative results, while social scientists need dialectics because their mathematical models suffer from crippling vagueness and complexity and are quickly outdated. Where mathematics can describe a system to which dialectics happen to also apply, e.g. phase transitions, it naturally produces models that mirror the dialectic because they both describe the same thing.

[-] QueerCommie@lemmygrad.ml 5 points 4 months ago

Yes you need to learn about science from scientists, but it’s not wrong to see dialectics in science. Like others, you are mistaking historical for dialectical materialism. Dialectical materialism is Marx and Engels’ scientific world outlook, historical materialism is that theory applied to the social sphere - social science.

[-] HaSch@lemmygrad.ml 3 points 4 months ago

It is right to see dialectics in science, but it appears after the fact as a consequence of observation and theory rather than as an epistemological requirement. Certain scientific theories, such as relativity, do not admit a dialectical interpretation due to a lack of actors to play out the dialectical process, or of contradictions between them.

[-] QueerCommie@lemmygrad.ml 5 points 4 months ago

I think I agree. You shouldn’t necessarily be looking for the Fichtean thesis and antithesis or whatever in every single situation. Just recognize that there are contradictions and interconnections and change is a necessity.

[-] destructor_rph@lemmygrad.ml 4 points 4 months ago

On another note, how did the Fichtean thesis and antithesis stuff become so prolific among Marxists? It wasn't used by Hegel or even Marx as far as I can tell, and it's completely contrary to the modern ideas of Dialectics as outlined by Mao.

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[-] rio@lemmygrad.ml 10 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

Well gravity itself is not a dialectic since gravity itself remains unchanging.

But the concept of gravity, the understanding of gravity, is a dialectic.

You go from Newton where gravity is an attractive force, to relativistic physics where gravity is not a force at all.

For Newton, gravity was a force pulling us down.

For Einstein, the force we feel is actually the earth beneath us exploding as a result of electromagnetic repulsion, and we stay “in place” at the point where the acceleration of electromagnetic repulsion is balanced by the flow of space time.

Then the concept of space time is itself a dialectic with the dominant view of physics denying a fixed “now” and instead supposing some kind of block universe or perhaps some other understanding of time where there is no fixed now.

And this dominant view increasingly challenged as absurd and reliant on non-empirical assumptions about the 1-way speed of light derived from the 2-way speed of light which gives you a minority view of neo-etherists where a “now” is restored.

It’s an understanding in flux.

Gravity itself is what it is. A fact of nature. What we understand gravity to be, that’s a dialectic.

Engels wrote

Gravity as the most general determination of materiality is commonly accepted. That is to say, attraction is a necessary property of matter, but not repulsion. But attraction and repulsion are as inseparable as positive and negative, and hence from dialectics itself it can already be predicted that the true theory of matter must assign as important a place to repulsion as to attraction, and that a theory of matter based on mere attraction is false, inadequate, and one-sided. In fact sufficient phenomena occur that demonstrate this in advance. If only on account of light, the ether is not to be dispensed with. Is the ether of material nature? If it exists at all, it must be of material nature, it must come under the concept of matter. But it is not affected by gravity. The tail of a comet is granted to be of material nature. It shows a powerful repulsion. Heat in a gas produces repulsion, etc.

It would go too far to credit Engels as a physicist because he wasn’t one but his insight into how the understanding of gravity must evolve was incredible.

I wouldn’t turn to Engels to understand gravity but it’s shocking how prescient he was in foreseeing the shifting understanding of gravity, a dialectic of the scientific revolution, well before Einstein was even born.

[-] redtea@lemmygrad.ml 7 points 4 months ago

I have some questions, which are not intended to be rhetorical or sarcastic. My questions stem from this assertion:

Well gravity itself is not a dialectic since gravity itself remains unchanging.

I'm struggling to see how you can say all that and begin with saying that gravity is 'not a dialectic'. Doesn't this framing imply that gravity can mean something/anything in the abstract, as an isolated thing that exists outside of relations. No one thing can be a dialectic because a dialectic is a relation.

The questions, which may be the same question worded in different ways:

  1. Dialectics is the study of change. Does that presuppose (measurable) change in everything?

  2. That is, if gravity is a relation, if it (partly) explains why matter is in constant motion, is it true that gravity is not dialectical just because it appears (and may be) unchanging in the abstract?

  3. How can you/we be sure that gravity is unchanging?

  4. How can gravity not be dialectical and yet only be explained as a relation/process?

  5. Does "Well gravity itself is not a dialectic since gravity itself remains unchanging" treat 'gravity' as a thing in itself? I.e. rather than a part/property of certain material relations?

[-] rio@lemmygrad.ml 5 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

The understanding of gravity is dialectical but the natural phenomenon of gravity isn’t.

Our explanations of it, understandings of it, our experience of it, those are dialectical.

Nature has only necessity and contingency obedient to unchanging laws and externalities but our idea of nature is what changes.

[-] QueerCommie@lemmygrad.ml 6 points 4 months ago

The sole conclusion to be drawn from the opinion of the marxists that Marx’s theory is an objective truth is that by following the path of Marxist theory we shall draw closer and closer to objective truth without ever exhausting it; but by following any other path we shall arrive at nothing but confusion and lies.

-Lenin

[-] redtea@lemmygrad.ml 6 points 4 months ago

I see. I don't know, though. That seems to externalise gravity as something beyond, as universal. As if gravity and the rest of physical matter are not internally related. It seems to assume (a) an epistemology that puts some knowledge beyond human comprehension just because we can't know for sure that our models are correct – like an epistemological scepticism – and (b) that something is unchanging just because we can't (yet or necessarily) perceive it's changes.

It seems incorrect to (i) need dialectics to explain a phenomena but (ii) deny that dialectics governs that phenomena on the basis that humans might one day transcend dialectics to arrive at a more accurate or deeper understanding of matter.

The notion that our understanding of nature is only an idea rather than our best approximation of the material seems anti-materialist. Dialectics doesn't necessarily exclude unchanging laws; it posits that development happens according to such laws, which are dialectical.

I don't think we conceive of 'changes' or of dialectics in the same way. But maybe we're saying the same thing in different words or talking past one another. That or I'm misunderstanding you.

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[-] GarbageShoot@hexbear.net 7 points 4 months ago

Does relativity involve repulsion like he describes?

[-] rio@lemmygrad.ml 7 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

You jump, fall down, you feet hit the ground.

You feel an impact.

Under the Newtonian understanding of gravity, the impact you felt was due to an attractive force.

Under the relativistic understanding, the force of impact was a repulsive one - electromagnetic repulsion of the earth. The earth is “exploding” constantly outwards due to electromagnetic repulsion, electromagnetic repulsion is accelerating every atom of the earth outwards from the center but this outward acceleration is in equilibrium with the flow of space time. Gravity is not understood to be a force at all under relativity, neither attractive or repulsive, but an apparent phenomenon due to the curvature of space time. The feeling of your feet against the ground is understood as electromagnetic repulsion.

Think about it this way: a body in free fall experiences weightlessness. When you’re falling you feel no force of gravity at all. It’s only when your feet are on the ground that you feel “gravity”.

Relativity doesn’t understand gravity to be a force at all but rather an apparent phenomenon. We can’t perceive the curvature of space time with our human senses and so our human senses misinterpret falling as being subject to an accelerative force due to an apparently attractive force of gravity when actually when you’re in free fall you are not being accelerated at all.

[-] GarbageShoot@hexbear.net 4 points 4 months ago

Doesn't that mean there is now a force of repulsion but not of attraction?

[-] rio@lemmygrad.ml 6 points 4 months ago

Specifically for the feeling of your feet against the ground being due to a repulsive electromagnetic force accelerating you outwards, that’s a repulsive force.

Gravity isn’t understood to be a force at all. Not attractive or repulsive.

[-] bennieandthez@lemmygrad.ml 6 points 4 months ago

gravity itself is not a dialectic since gravity itself remains unchanging.

this is not true, the value of gravity is never constant. On earth its used as a constant because the changes are "insignificant" but there are differences.

the sum of insignificant quantitative changes leads to qualitative changes, if you approached to the moon 1 meter at a time and measured gravity, the difference would be minimal, but after 10km you would start noticing the changes.

[-] Red_Scare@lemmygrad.ml 6 points 4 months ago

~~How~~ why would you describe gravity in terms of dialectics?

[-] QueerCommie@lemmygrad.ml 5 points 4 months ago

The unity of opposites in all things in the kernel of dialectics.

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this post was submitted on 26 Jun 2024
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