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submitted 1 year ago by digdilem@feddit.uk to c/linux@lemmy.ml

An exceptionally well explained rant that I find myself in total agreement with.

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[-] UrbenLegend@lemmy.ml 85 points 1 year ago

I get where Jeff Geerling is coming from, but I think RedHat has a point as well.

I think a lot of people are coming at this from the perspective that RedHat themselves are just repackaging open source code and putting it behind a paywall, instead of also being one of the top contributors of software and bug fixes into the Linux ecosystem. Jeff mentions that Redhat is based on other open source software like the Linux kernel, but at the same time doesn't mention that they're also one of the leading contributors to it. I mean seriously, good luck using Linux without a single piece of RedHat code and see how far that gets you. If you're entering the discussion from that perspective of "Redhat is simply just taking other people's work as well", it's easy to have a biased view and start painting RedHat as a pure villain.

I also think that people are downplaying exactly how much effort it takes to build an enterprise Linux system, support customers at an engineering level, and backport patches, etc. Having downstream distributions straight up sell support contracts on an exact copy of your work won't fly or be considered fair in any other business situation and I get why RedHat as a business doesn't want to go out of their way to make that easy.

And it's not like Redhat isn't contributing the developments that happen in RHEL back into the FOSS community. That's literally what CentOS Stream is and will continue to be, alongside their other upstream contributions.

Does it suck that we won't have binary compatibility between Alma / Rocky and RHEL, yes it is frustrating as a user! Does it suck that we once got RHEL source for free and now we have to resort to Centos Stream? Yes! But the reality too is that open source STILL needs sources of income to pay developers to work on the Linux ecosystem, which is getting bigger and more complicated every day. That money has to come from somewhere, just sayin.

[-] underisk@lemmy.ml 75 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

This argument that open source somehow needs to exploit users and blatantly skirt the intent of the GPL because profit must be taken from it is absurd.

Why is it assumed that they weren’t perfectly sustainable before and why is it the end users responsibility to bear the burden of making their business model viable if they weren’t? Being unprofitable doesn’t excuse you from following the terms of your software license.

[-] jonne@infosec.pub 25 points 1 year ago

Red Hat weren't ever unprofitable under the old model. This is just the classic killing of the goose that lays the golden eggs. They'll get a short term boost in profit until customers start moving to competitors.

[-] buckykat@lemmy.fmhy.ml 16 points 1 year ago

The profit motive is antithetical to software freedom

[-] UrbenLegend@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 year ago

Except they're aren't violating the GPL at all. Their source code is still available to subscribers (and it isn't behind a paywall because you can get a free license) and available to the public via CentOS Stream. Their code also goes into upstream projects as well.

The GPL exists so that companies can't just take the code and contribute nothing back. But that isn't what Redhat is doing here so I find your accusations that Redhat is exploiting users to be very hyperbolic.

[-] massacre@lemmy.ml 26 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

My understanding is that if you redistribute the source they provide (whether Paywalled or free dev account) that they can and plan to 1) revoke your payed support access or 2) revoke your free dev account.

That means that people are inevitably going to share out RH source from free dev accounts right off the bat, and just cycle through new dev accounts. That's an escalating war where they watermark/fingerprint their source so they know who's redistributing, and any model or distro built on this won't last or carry considerable risk. Enterprise customers are unlikely to take this risk, though. So this sets up a pretty stupid game and generally goes against the spirit of FOSS if not the letter.

I'd like to address one statement you made above: CentOS Stream is NOT RHEL source. It's effectively the beta branch. Which means it's not bug-for-bug which is quite frankly critical to any dev, enterprise or otherwise, and the key reason they moved it upstream of RHEL - because it screws over what they consider to be freeloaders on purpose. They may be targeting other distros, but it affects all developers who just want to test their applications. Now that dev has to explore options for a dev account, be careful not to redistribute or lose that access, etc.

Jeff does an excellent job of explaining it and whether or not RHEL contributes to the kernel or other source, stating it the way you do is akin to giving them an excuse. Oracle contributes. Users contribute (by testing, submitting bugs, providing guidance and configuration templates or advice), Countless Devs contribute. All of that should not excuse IBM Red Hat's behavior because they want to squeeze more profit out of a model that's not setup well. The fact that their SNAP is essentially "trust me bro" now and with this move, I'm done with anything dependent upon RH. That may not mean much in my home lab setup with maybe a dozen boxes, but at work, I am in a position to influence thousands upon thousands of instances and I'm just one person paying attention to this. RH is focusing on short term profits over long term health and without disclosing anything, I'm confident will swiftly bite them in the ass. And it will be their own doing.

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[-] mo_ztt@lemmy.world 21 points 1 year ago

If that were accurate, then what Redhat is doing would be fine. The issue is that they've been requiring that their customers not exercise their rights under the GPL to copy or share the source code that Redhat is providing, with the threat of cutting off their support if they do. There's an unsettled argument on whether that is actually a violation of the law that grants them the ability to sell someone else's work in the first place, or merely a gross violation of the spirit that most of the people who authored the source code they're selling would be 100% opposed to. But it's at least one of those things.

The GPL exists so that companies can’t just take the code and contribute nothing back.

This isn't accurate, though. The GPL says nothing about contributing anything back in terms of authoring improvements or making them available. What it says is, you can redistribute our work, or even sell it, but you need to make sure that people who receive it from you also have those rights.

I'm aware that Redhat is comparatively speaking, a huge contributor to the FOSS ecosystem. But, if the amount of code they've written is huge, the amount that people outside Redhat wrote that they're selling is gargantuan. I would be very surprised if as much as 5% of the code they're selling to their customers was anything they authored. If they want to sell the other 95+%, I think it's fair to ask that they obey the licensing that allows them to.

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[-] ProgrammingSocks@pawb.social 12 points 1 year ago

Except that Redhat is trying to literally stop one of the four essential freedoms - the freedom to redistribute. Arguably they might actually be breaking the terms of the GPL.

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[-] underisk@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 year ago

Whether or not they're violating the letter of the GPL is entirely separate from whether they're violating its intent. The former is debatable but the latter is absolutely happening here.

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[-] past_pollution@lemmy.world 48 points 1 year ago

The problem is that nothing Red Hat has done justifies them breaking the rules.

Have they made tons of contributions back to open source? Yes. Do they need to make money? Yes. Are there organizations and people who are, in essence, freeloading off their work? Yes.

But here's the thing. At the end of the day, they chose to make their project open source and to build it on Linux. And that choice comes with rules that they (and everyone else that have used Linux or other FOSS projects) have to follow, no exceptions. You can argue that their motivations for wanting to do so are understandable all day long. You can argue the GPL is bad and shouldn't work this way. But they still chose this ecosystem.

Now, have they actually violated the GPL? We'll leave that up to the lawyers to decide I guess. But if we're only talking whether they should be allowed to violate the GPL, the answer is absolutely not. If they didn't want RHEL to be open source and stolen by freeloaders they should've made their own operating system with their own license.

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[-] SK4nda1@lemmy.ml 41 points 1 year ago

I agree that they should be allowed a profit. However calling it open source when redistributing rhel code causes them to hold the right of canceling you access to the code and binary, eventhough gpl states that redistributing is a right under gpl rubs me the wrong way.

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[-] Murdified 18 points 1 year ago

It's not as if they didn't still get paid under the previous model. It's just not conducive to a profit line that has to be on an incline forever, else be axed or forever altered, such as in this case. It's greed, pure and simple. They have to find a new way to make the line on a chart go up and people who are more interested in short term gain figured they can wait out the backlash storm and rake in more profit on other businesses that are already locked in. They're not dumb, they just aren't incentivized in anyway to be concerned for the long-term health of what they are built on.

[-] vipaal@feddit.de 17 points 1 year ago

In the video, and in the blogpost that is effectively the transcript of the video, he clearly states that though locking away the source code is within IBM's or RedHat's rights.

What seems to have done it for him is, the subscription terms and conditions that prevent redistribution of source code by subscribers or else have the subscription revoked. This is what he argues as being borderline illegal and that RedHat could be banking on the army of lawyers on IBM's retainer.

And, knowing Oracle, what is to stop them from becoming a subscriber? That way, RedHat has a poster child of a subscriber, Oracle gets access to the code which they can and most likely will, with their own army of lawyers, repackage and publish as Oracle Linux. Admittedly this is my cynical take on Jeff's.

Time to start debating moving more projects under GPLv3 or AGPLv3 which demand more innovative ways to run a business than what IBM is doing.

[-] Woozy@lemmy.fmhy.ml 16 points 1 year ago

All the good things you said about Redhat should be in past tense. IBM recently laid off tons of Redhat employees, including the Fedora team lead! Redhat is no longer an organization in any real sense. It is only the name of a product now. It's as meaningful as IBM's "Watson". They are only marketing terms.

Don't expect much investment or technical innovation out of Redhat/IBM going forward. IBM is always going to put its short term (short sighted) self interest ahead of everything else.

[-] 9488fcea02a9@sh.itjust.works 12 points 1 year ago

... open source STILL needs sources of income to pay developers to work on the Linux ecosystem ....

free as in freedom, not free like free beer

[-] redcalcium@c.calciumlabs.com 10 points 1 year ago

Free as in freedom, but you can only do it once before red hat cancels your account due to sharing the source code you downloaded from their portal.

[-] lukas@lemmy.haigner.me 11 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I was mad when I first heard about it, but now? Not so much...

You would be mad as well if a megacorp uses your successful foss to generate revenue cough Oracle Linux cough, floods you with merge requests and issues, expects you to fix them, and don't pay you a dime. Everyone says that this is your fault: You shouldn't have licensed it the way you did. But that doesn't change the fact that you hate everything about your situation. You hate the people who use your work for free, and hate yourself for giving your work away for free.

But this is Red Hat. They asked their legal team how they can get out of this mess. So they found a loophole to close-source RHEL. Now... whether or not RHEL will survive this is a different beast.

Edit: Red Hat also created the following major projects:

  • Wayland
  • PipeWire
  • PulseAudio
  • systemd
  • FreeIPA
  • Keycloak
  • OpenStack
  • NetworkManager
  • Ceph

If that wasn't enough, they're also major contributors of the following projects:

  • Xorg
  • GNOME
  • LibreOffice
  • radeon
  • Linux kernel

If you run any Linux distribution today, chances are you use Red Hat projects. You can also say that anyone who uses the Linux kernel profits off of Red Hat.

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[-] JuxtaposedJaguar@lemmy.ml 10 points 1 year ago

I've become a lot more sympathetic to RH after learning about Oracle Linux. I still disagree with it, but another mega-corp selling support for a RHEL clone is egregious.

[-] Irisos@lemmy.umainfo.live 12 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Oracle Linux is 100% the cause of this change.

Imagine supporting 2 other distros to make your own enterprise linux that is your only source of money through optional subscriptions to it.

Then some other big unethical corporation (much like your own parent company) comes in, use the GPL license to clone it and slap an "Oracle db certified" sticker on it. Finally, they decide to use the same subscription model as you except they get insane margins since you did 99% of the work for them.

But looking at what Rocky Linux is saying publicly. It's not impossible that Red Hat won't levy their right to remove access to the sources to non-commercial forks of RHEL.

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[-] tetha@feddit.de 11 points 1 year ago

IMO, this is the elephant in the room.

If you're looking at what people used CentOS or Rocky or Alma for - dev systems, CI systems, ... These aren't lost sales. If you forced them to off of their solution, they aren't going to pay the price tag and management/installation pain of RHEL. If they have people knowing how to run Linux, they'll use something else. And sure, they are drawing some resources from RH (bandwidth for packages at the very least), but they are giving the RH system a larger footprint in deployed systems. And people running it had a positive opinion about the system.

But Oracle Linux is a different beast. Here a company is poaching large customers willing to pay for support by repackaging your product for less effort. It sucks, but it's entirely consistent for Oracle to be part of ruining a good thing.

[-] daguito81@waveform.social 10 points 1 year ago

I gotta admit I was being pretty reactionary about this and didn't know about the Oracle Linux thing. That's just... Plain wrong. Can't say I wouldn't do thr same as red hat in their shoes

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[-] transientpunk@sh.itjust.works 47 points 1 year ago

I am surprised it has taken IBM this long to begin poisoning the waters...

[-] animist@lemmy.one 40 points 1 year ago

This said it all perfectly. Think I'll check out more of his videos.

[-] Eldritch@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago

If you like raspberry pis, SBCs, or Linux you're in for a decent time. Although he did get a bit of flack for his Eben Upton interview. Though I felta lot of that was overblown.

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[-] malloc@lemmy.world 40 points 1 year ago

2019-07-09: The death knell of Red Hat

Honestly, I am not surprised. Red Hat's parent company IBM is an absolute joke. Almost as bad as Oracle.

[-] MrSpArkle@lemmy.ca 9 points 1 year ago

Don't worry, Redhat was garbage anyway. It's going to pale in comparison to Watson Enterprise Linux.

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[-] neardeaf@lemmy.ml 37 points 1 year ago

I’ve been watching ol Jeff for quite some time. He’s so delightfully nerdy I love him

[-] FrankTheHealer@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 year ago

Ive only recently started to follow him, and yeah, hes awesome.

He really seems to know his stuff

[-] freeman@lemmy.pub 26 points 1 year ago

I dont understand how redhat is going to police this policy of "we'll keep source code open to paying customers, but reserve the right to cancel a customer that shares said source".

Toss in GUID's or randomly place identity files to anyone that downloads the RHEL source hoping they get accidentally published as an identifying attribute if someone does decide to publish it elsewhere.

[-] terribleplan@lemmy.nrd.li 13 points 1 year ago

And make sure that identifier scheme still works if different people on different subscriptions download the source and compare to filter identifiers like that out...

[-] Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me 9 points 1 year ago

They could try that but I suspect it would be rather easy to find anomalies like that. These are ultimately patches to an upstream and already open-source project, so one can just diff the RHEL version with the release it's based on and quickly notice that random GUID in the sources or random spaces/indentation. Or have multiple sources leak the code independently, and then you can diff them all between eachother to verify if you got exactly the same code or if they injected something sneaky to track it, and remove it.

Lots of companies in enterprise also want to host their own mirror because the servers are airgapped, so they can't even track who downloaded all the sources because many companies will in fact do that. And serving slightly modified but still signed packages sounds like it would be rather computationally expensive to do on the fly, so they can't exactly add tracking built into the packages of the repos either. And again easy to detect with basic checksumming of the files.

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[-] db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com 19 points 1 year ago

I really hope this doesn't affect ansible. I'll be so fucking mad.

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[-] art@lemmy.world 18 points 1 year ago

Jeff is 100 spot on. IBM/Redhat is really shooting themselves in the foot for some short term profits.

[-] Kerb@discuss.tchncs.de 18 points 1 year ago

Guess they really wanted to be the Reddit of Linux

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[-] communistcapy 17 points 1 year ago

Non-youtube link

That was great! I mean the circumstances are not great but I like the video. It seems there's a lot of talk about how big companies take over open source projects and ruin them, which is a good conversation.

[-] digdilem@feddit.uk 6 points 1 year ago

Somehow I'd kind of not known who Jeff Geerling was until this. And damn, he does a good presentation. Succinct, very clear and gets his point across extremely well without too much heat. No way I could I do that!

[-] joojmachine@lemmy.ml 14 points 1 year ago

Damn, couldn't have put it better even if I spent weeks trying to sum it down.

[-] lucas@programming.dev 13 points 1 year ago

I’m so annoyed with this. We were using CentOS, which was effectively killed, then I did a lot of research and spent time moving everything over the AlmaLinux.

Having to now do it all again another time is so frustrating; the only pragmatic long-term option is to bite the bullet and get things working on Debian.

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[-] ProfessorGumby@midwest.social 10 points 1 year ago

Red Hat is dead to me.

[-] silent_clash@lemmygrad.ml 9 points 1 year ago

This was his first reaction, just as satisfying to read: https://www.jeffgeerling.com/blog/2023/dear-red-hat-are-you-dumb

[-] himawari@lemmy.4d2.org 6 points 1 year ago

Truly the year of enshittification.

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this post was submitted on 26 Jun 2023
613 points (98.4% liked)

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