this post was submitted on 13 Jun 2023
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Support and meta community for Beehaw. Ask your questions about the community, technical issues, and other such things here.

A brief FAQ for lurkers and new users can be found here.

Our September 2024 financial update is here.

For a refresher on our philosophy, see also What is Beehaw?, The spirit of the rules, and Beehaw is a Community


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Beehaw is a community of individuals and therefore does not have any specific political affiliation. At this point in time, we do not know what the political leanings of most of our users are. I would suspect that many of them would identify as progressive because we are explicitly a safe space for minorities. What we stand for and the space that we're trying to make is compatible with many forms of politics. Unfortunately some political groups build themselves around and choose to elevate or tolerate hate speech. These are the only political groups that we are incompatible with. If any of it was unclear in any of the other posts, I will restate it all here. Beehaw does not tolerate hate speech. Beehaw is an explicitly safe space. We center and promote kindness because that is what we see and love in the world.

Some of the instances that we have chosen to defederate with have explicit political stances and ideologies. Their political stance and ideology had nothing to do with the choice to defederate. The choice to defederate was based on the amount of hate speech present on the instance and/or explicitly endorsing it. Since hate speech is not controlled on the instances that these users come from, we cannot expect them to change their behavior when participating on our instance. While users may exist on some of these platforms who do not spread hate speech, the choice to defederate is made to reduce the burden on our moderators and admins. Occasionally these instances or users from these instances will point their fingers at Beehaw and make claims about our political leanings or whether certain kinds of politics are banned. To be explicitly clear, the only kind of politics that are banned here are those which enable hate speech such as fascism.

Politics on the internet


Many, if not most discussions of politics on the internet are poisoned by virtue signaling. When they are not poisoned by virtue signaling, discussions are often just ways to vent emotions. I believe the reason for this is the platforms themselves and the incentives to engage online. On the internet I can adjust my level of anonymity. An adjustable level of anonymity allows me to change how I speak to others while simultaneously mitigating or removing any consequences to myself. This of course varies based on the platform and what I'm attempting to accomplish, but in the context of speaking with others on the internet, I can be relatively consequence free to say whatever I want on most major platforms. Particularly negative or hateful behavior might cause me to be banned off of a platform, but through the use of technology or other means, I can simply create another account (or migrate to another platform) and continue the same speech. In malicious terms, I do not have to worry about managing someone else's emotions or my connection to them.

In real life, on the other hand, it is not as easy to pass myself off as someone else. I must be much more aware of how I speak to others because consequences can be much more dire. When discussing politics with others, I may alienate them or myself and so I may choose to be more open to listen rather than soapboxing. The people I'm interacting with may be a regular part of my life and may be people I have come to respect. Understanding how they think might be vitally important to maintaining or improving our connection.

I am presenting the internet and real life as two ends of a spectrum but it is more complicated than that. There are people who are very visible and tied to their identities on the internet just as there are people in real life who use false identities created to mask their true identity. Interactions vary in level of connection, platform, and who happens to know who we are in other spaces on the internet. There are plenty of people who talk on the internet about politics with the explicit goal of changing the minds of others. Some of these individuals are not using this as an outlet to manage their own emotions. These generalizations are presented in this way because I need to talk about these patterns in the context of the platform Lemmy. I'm asking everyone on this platform to be wary of anyone who focuses on politics but is unable to explain the issues themselves. They are probably trying to deceive you, are virtue signaling, or projecting their own insecurities and you should be skeptical of their approach.

I would encourage all of you to think about incentives when presented with political drama online. It is easy to get engaged because politics has a direct and often scary effect on our lives. In this community, it is not difficult to find individuals who are regularly marginalized by politicians. Especially for these minorities, it is completely valid to get emotionally invested in politics and I would personally encourage doing so on some level, but we need to think carefully about the other parties present in a conversation and whether they are willing to listen or incentivized to do so. For the people who are hiding behind anonymity and posting to vent their emotional frustrations with the system they are likely not invested in the community we are growing here and it may be appropriate and healthy to ignore or disengage with these folks.

Forking


It is in this political context that forking from the main Lemmy development has been presented. People are quick to point to potential upsides of forking, but the upsides are an after thought presented as a means to bolster or justify forking. These justifications are for what is ultimately a moral issue. The question at hand is whether it is moral to use a platform developed by someone who has committed acts which one deems immoral. To anyone posing this question, I would ask them to consider what other technology they use every day and to trace the roots back to each invention along the path to today's day and age. The world has a colonialist history, rife with violence and immoral behavior. Unless you retreat the woods and recreate technologies yourself from scratch, it's impossible to live in a modern society without benefiting from technology built on countless dead bodies in history.

We do not have the technical expertise to create a new tool from scratch - all we can do is leverage tools that already exist to create communities like this. At the time we created this instance, the service we decided on was Lemmy. We did so with awareness of discussions around the politics of the main instance and developers. I think we've done a decent job outlining what we intend to do with this instance and explicitly made strong stances against hate speech and other behavior we do not agree with, including where we disagree with them. When taken in the context of computing in general, these political leanings are also not unique in their social and political harm as compared to some of the tech giants out there. The same is true in comparison to some of the famous tech inventors and innovators; in comparison to the history of computer technology; in comparison to the exploitation and problematic mining of rare earth minerals used in technology; in comparison to the damages we cause to the earth to create the energy used to power our servers. We can follow this path of thinking back all that we want to, and ultimately it's just not a particularly fruitful discussion to zero in on whether the political leaning of the main developers and instance are in perfect alignment with what we want to accomplish. We are not explicitly endorsing their viewpoint by using their software and we are not tied to using this software forever.

I cannot stress enough how much bandwidth has been taken up by these discussions in recent days. It been brought up as frequently as every few hours across Discord, Matrix, inbox replies, comment replies, new threads, and other forms of communication. We're currently dealing with a lot of other issues like keeping the server running, expanding to add more communities, moderating the communities amidst a huge influx of users posting and reply content from other instances, managing expenses, optimizing our server, planning for the future, and so much more. We cannot entertain philosophical discussions on all of the wonderful things we 'could do' when we're struggling to keep up with what we're already currently doing. We have not yet received a serious proposal for a fork which details operational needs when it comes to the maintenance, support, and resources needed to accomplish and maintain it. Simply put we do not believe a fork is necessary at this time.

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[–] Gaywallet@beehaw.org 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

How you can help


As a final note, if there are things you'd like to see in this community we very much appreciate your input. However, this community has grown so large that I am already finding myself unable to reply to everyone and address everyone's concerns and I'm sure other admins feel similarly. Please consider whether your questions are better directed elsewhere - consider using the search functionality to see if others have answered the question; consider joining the matrix or discord to field questions to community members, or create a thread asking for help from your fellow users before reaching out to an administrator or a moderator.

If you feel strongly about contributing to Beehaw specifically or helping out with tuning or running the hardware, please join the Matrix or Discord and get involved in the relevant channels or discussions. If you want to contribute to Lemmy development, we would encourage you to dip your toes in, get involved, and get more familiar with the platform. Follow the Github and report bugs when you encounter them, or see what you can contribue to existing open issues. If you see technical issues arise with development, bring it to our attention so that we can act as mediators because we have collective power.

If you feel strongly about a longer term or larger project like creating a team to create documentation or helping us to legally become a nonprofit entity I also want to assure you that we love the enthusiasm, but unless you are coming to us with a formal pitch please spend your efforts self-organizing around this so that you can come to us with that pitch. Assume we know nothing about the field of expertise needed to accomplish any of these larger tasks and assume that we are extremely busy and unable to field or solicit advice without an executive summary and at least a draft plan of what the steps might look like, who would be responsible for those steps, anticipated concerns and plans for addressing them, and a timeline and estimation of resources needed.

[–] Nullroad@beehaw.org 1 points 2 years ago (6 children)

After a buzz over to Hexbear, I find the strain of far-left over there that is more concerned with backbiting and defending former-communist and current parody-communist regimes because blind 'if west bad, not west good' thinking, than any of the useful zones of leftist activity.

I didn't observe anything that was explicitly hate-speech in my 15 minutes buzzin' around, but it didn't really feel 'kind', if you know what I mean. I get why Beehaw isn't federated with them. For the record, I am a deeply left-person. I do think that stating "Beehaw has no specific political affiliation" to be somewhat naive. Midnight fueled thoughts incoming.

If Beehaw is "explicitly a safe space for minorities", then we must ask "Why do we need a safe space for minorities?", "Where does this need come from?" all of which begs questions about power, hierarchy, control, the sources and motive of hate and oppression, and a dozen other related questions that will each need some meaningful response. This leaves you with a couple of choices.

  • We become horribly reductionist (and naive) and just handwave and say "Because we need kindness, and there is hate." But then, why are we in need of kindness, why is there hate? Why do we need more love? Different hole, same warren. This route I think trips you up in the "unable to explain the issues themselves." You might retreat to the escape hatch of "focused on politics", but ignoring something so pervasive and in-your-face as politics is a conscious and focused political act. People who ignore politics are some of the most deeply political people on the planet. There is no escape from politics.
  • The other option: We confront and grapple with the beast, and reach conclusions, answers, and stances to the best of our ability about these issues that lie at the heart of a community's formation, what we want for it and for people. This is basically the formulation of an ideology or identity. Maybe not a concrete one, but one that will broadly align with some subset population and unalign with another. Maybe this doesn't quite fit with Beehaw's vision of community, but at its most over-simple, a community basically defined by both who is in, and who is out, and the nature of those assertions.

Bullet 1 is (in my opinion) unsustainable; it will present a nice facade for a time, but eventually people and events will make people dig, and dig, and dig. Some of these incidents will put people in a place where they won't have clarity and purity that comes from deliberate soul-searching, but will be wrapped up in moments of fear, panic, hate, outrage, and other emotions that will bias the rudder towards things the admin may find unpleasant. People come to strange and often harmful choices and beliefs when they don't have a wellspring of strength to draw from, and instead have to find it in the moment, or as is often the case, give in to the storm (excuse the purple here. It's late as hell for me). I think this is evident in just about every major online community of the past.

So as I run out of energy: I think you start thinking about some broad stances, or people here will start thinking of them for you. That "we do not know what the political leanings of most of our users are" may be a dangerous sign that there isn't really a pulse on the kind of community you're building, and are accidentally just throwing together a place where people gather.

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[–] taco@beehaw.org 1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (4 children)

I like this post! I follow some people elsewhere who are mostly hyping up kbin because the main developer of Lemmy is a tankie and the main developer of kbin maybe isn't - but it's such a weird thing to apply a purity test to. Other comments mentioned it but Lemmy is FOSS, so even if you disagree with the political leanings of the developers, you are totally free to do what you want with it. Barring the presence of any backdoors (which would likely/hopefully be caught because, again, FOSS) the main developers don't have access to any instances created with the software. I don't really understand the concern.

Now, if there's a functional concern with the Lemmy platform and how it's being developed, then yeah, that's when a fork should be looked at. It shouldn't be looked at by an individual community (with a lack of people who can help), but a more widespread effort. But forking because the "lead" developer doesn't match your purity test? Nah.

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[–] Penguincoder@beehaw.org 0 points 2 years ago (10 children)

The question at hand is whether it is moral to use a platform developed by someone who has committed acts which one deems immoral.

The platform is a tool, much as anything else is. The intent and message is what separate the use of tools. BeeHaw has an amazing intent and purpose. Creation or developer of the tools should not factor into using such.

[–] amortized_cost@beehaw.org 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (5 children)

I sincerely believe this but then again I would not want to use any tools developed by nazi freak at the same time. Huge difference, I know. Just saying that the CCP definitely has major human rights issues and lemmy dev seems to be in favor of them...

I don't think forking is the right option either. It's just that we should be aware of that. That's all..for now.

[–] mustyOrange@beehaw.org 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

Criticism is always warranted for things. But let's be real - having devs that stan the ccp for software that is, keep in mind, highly decentralized is low risk for the overall development of the platform for anyone worried. If we're talking ethics of it, I'd say buying chocolate bars from nestle is probably a greater evil in the scheme of things than developing software with tankies.

Personally, I always feel when people freak out over ccp aligned people, it's quite a bit of a double standard. Half of social media in general is used for propagandizing, and I don't think any country has its hands anywhere near clean. Hell, half of American media would blacklist people for talking out against the Iraq war not that long ago. Every place has its bias. Purity testing over something like that for a whole framework just doesn't make sense.

Authoritarians and authoritarian sympathizers should be called out at every opportunity, but the actions have to make sense

[–] argv_minus_one@beehaw.org 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (2 children)

The issue with China is that it's powerful enough to be a serious threat to those living outside its borders. Few deny that the Khmer Rouge are horrible, but people not near Cambodia aren't afraid of them like they are of the CCP.

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[–] alyaza@beehaw.org 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

I sincerely believe this but then again I would not want to use any tools developed by nazi freak at the same time. Just saying that the CCP definitely has major human rights issues and lemmy dev seems to be in favor of them…

the whole point of this post though is that you almost certainly are, and you will continue to do so with no consistent objection because your outrage is informed as much by your own biases as by legitimate concern for the abuses you object to.

simply put: if you're looking for clean hands, i promise you will not find any in technology at any stage of the process. the devices we all use right now to write these comments are only made possible through a system of human rights abuses and callous disregard for human wellbeing--the conditions miners of rare earth minerals work in are appalling. the people who keep the websites you use from being a neverending torrent of horrifying gore, violence, rape, and abuse are exploited and underpaid by the social media corporations that hire them--they are frequently permanently scarred by that experience and left to rot. it is a well established fact that social media sites like Twitter, Facebook, and Reddit are breeding grounds for hate, terrorism, and even organization of genocide. critical infrastructure which underpins their function such as Cloudflare? they've gladly gone to the mat for preventing the removal of such "speech" from the internet until it was literally impossible to do so due to PR backlash. those are just four examples--i could spend literally hours railing them off with actual research.

but, do you protest any of that? do you object to it or organize against it with even the outrage you're mustering against the Lemmy developers right now? or us for using their software? and lest i be misinterpreted as running defense for their takes here: their opinions are bad. they suck. it'd be really cool if they stopped pretending all news about China is western Orientalism. but Lemmy generously has what, 200,000 accounts? Cloudflare is responsible for making like half of the current internet possible through their services. if you want to talk about tools which promote and allow for serious harm, their refusal to drop support for anything but the most vehemently and unambiguously terroristic websites online causes infinitely more harm than anything a Lemmy dev has ever said or ever will. and i promise you've interfaced with or make routine use of a service which does or has lobbied for the continuation truly heinous, unforgivable crimes every day--you just don't know about it, or you've already made peace with it. that is the issue here. if you want to die on this hill, be consistent or at least understand what a paltry hill this is in the grand scheme of worldwide injustices.

[–] 0xSim@fedia.io 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

but, do you protest any of that?

"you should protest everything or nothing, no middle ground allowed", this has a big "and yet you participate in society" vibe.

[–] alyaza@beehaw.org 0 points 2 years ago (5 children)

i mean, if you cherrypick a point in a long post then yes you can mischaracterize it easily. but also respectfully: if your interest is in preventing harm in any meaningful way, i would strongly recommend that you do something that actually matters and not limit your harm-prevention praxis to "complaining a niche site that you use is hosted on niche software developed by people who you have a political disagreement with, and furthermore disagree with in a way which has no bearing on how those people actually develop the software". this is unambiguously slacktivism and it's very evocative of a person who is just lashing out because they can't influence any other political situation they're in.

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[–] argv_minus_one@beehaw.org 0 points 2 years ago (6 children)

I would not want to use any tools developed by nazi freak

You probably already are. The Nazis did a lot of extremely unethical medical experiments on human subjects, the results of which have been kept and used in medical research and development ever since. They also did a lot of atomic energy research, and the US wasted no time in recruiting those researchers.

Although it is certainly tempting to throw out the data from Nazi human experiments in particular, I can think of a pretty compelling reason not to: if we do, then those people will have died for nothing.

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[–] arkcom@fedia.io 0 points 2 years ago

Is it really that huge of a difference? He's practically more fascist than communist, and it's been know for at least 4 years, when he got banned from /r/socialism
https://raddle.me/f/lobby/96713/heads-up-the-tankie-behind-lemmy-ml-got-banned-from-r

[–] aMalayali@beehaw.org 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

I would not want to use any tools developed by nazi freak at the same time.

I would not use such a tool if it brings them and their ideology funding or other benefits, but if I can use it for my purposes(which are likely not evil or harmful) without contributing to their cause, then I would.

If the tool can be used for good, then should it be ignored just because of the political inclinations of the creator?

[–] Hellebert@beehaw.org 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

You're using it right now without contributing to their cause.

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[–] LedgeDrop@beehaw.org 0 points 2 years ago

As one of the many New Users/Lost Redditors: Thank you for working hard to "keep the lights" and in fostering such a welcoming community.

[–] feetongrass@beehaw.org 0 points 2 years ago (2 children)

I don't think anybody can say beehaw is in any way representative of lemmy.ml politics. As far as I can see, it's the farthest thing from lemmy.ml or any other politics on either spectrum. I actually think beehaw is a fine example of how independent different instances can be.

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[–] Hellebert@beehaw.org 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (12 children)

Lemmy is an AGPL software. Forking would just put a ton more burden on yourself with no real benefit.

I'd only bother forking if the original devs stopped supporting it and/or there were features you wanted but they refused to implement. What those dev's political believes are matter very little at the end of the day and it's ok for people to have different opinions.

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[–] Nymphioxetine@beehaw.org 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Very well said. I can understand the idea and motivation, but forking would kill the community.

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[–] CooperRedArmyDog@lemmy.ml 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (5 children)

Question, you mention that the only instances you block allow fascism, however you have blocked both Lemmygrad and preemptively Hexbear, both of them are Communist in nature, and I feel that this is crazy to need to point out, but communism is the polar opposite to Fascism, and they are ideological opposed in every way, You will never find a more ardent anti-facist than a communist, so I feel like this is a bad faith attack on these instances. I also would like to point out that First Hexbear has not federated, nor made any plans to federate with Beehaw, over concerns with Beehaw moderation, and Lemmygrad has Rule 2. No Bigotry Rule 3. be Respectful and Rule 5. No Right Deviationists (No fascists), and they are very well enforced, and Rule 3 in particular is better enforced there than over here on Beehaw.

[–] argv_minus_one@beehaw.org 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Anti-fascists? These people revere the likes of Mao and Stalin. In what meaningful way were Mao and Stalin different from fascists?

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[–] reka@beehaw.org 0 points 2 years ago

I'd just like to commend you on your choice of language here. You're more diplomatic than most politicians! Well expressed and I support the principals you put forward.

[–] Wintermute@lemmy.villa-straylight.social 0 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Out of curiosity, how did you come up with the current list of defederated instances? Clicking on the first several links leads me to believe most are Mastodon servers and a good chunk of them don't even exist anymore. Is the list largely based on some pre-existing list maintained elsewhere in the Fediverse?

[–] Gaywallet@beehaw.org 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (2 children)

Some of these places used to exist and no longer do. We have also incorporated tier0 from this list. Otherwise it comes to us from other users or what we run across.

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[–] Derproid@beehaw.org 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

How can you view the list of defederated instances?

Edit: Nevermind found it, it's at the bottom of the page click Instances and then scroll to Blocked Instances.

[–] possiblylinux127@beehaw.org 0 points 2 years ago (16 children)

First off I would like to thank the beehaw team for there excellent work. I doappreciated your work.

However, as someone who has conservative values, I disagree about your statement of neutrality. Your choice to use the word "minorities" clearly demonstrates that you have a political agenda. Furthermore, you use the term hate speech without actually defining it.

With that being say, I agree that we should not allow offensive or harmful language. I think all people deserve the right to not be targeted for personal choices or characteristics that they can not control. I also think people should be respectful of ideas even if they disagree. Targeting someone because you don't agree with them should be prohibited. It also comes to my attention that many alternative social media sites end up becoming home to antisemitic and racist ideas. I support free speech but it can get out of hand quickly. Beehaw should work to have a clear system for moderation that is fair and can be protested in the case of bias. There also should be a transparency report by users in order to keep the administration honest. We must not let this community be tained by harmful speech but we should try to address it with compassion.

Cheers, Possiblylinux127

[–] Gaywallet@beehaw.org 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

We are explicitly anti free speech. This is also explicitly a safe space. Using the word minority does not constitute a political agenda. If you disagree with any of those statements you should move along as this is not a space for you.

[–] possiblylinux127@beehaw.org 0 points 2 years ago (2 children)

I think I'll stay since all the other instances have a lot of negativity. I just wanted to highlight some of your bias.

[–] alyaza@beehaw.org 0 points 2 years ago

I just wanted to highlight some of your bias.

we are extremely fine with being "biased" or perceived as biased in favor of minority groups, to be very clear.

[–] Gaywallet@beehaw.org 0 points 2 years ago

Yes, I am absolutely biased. I prefer uplifting and wholesome content. I love positivity. I want humans to unite instead of divide. I am not worried about my biases or of being biased because I know the benefits it brings to the world.

[–] dhc02@fedia.io 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

The mere mention of the term "minorities" implies a political agenda?

[–] possiblylinux127@beehaw.org 0 points 2 years ago (2 children)

It puts focus on small groups of people instead of the general public.

[–] pushka@beehaw.org 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

"explicitly a safe space for minorities" - when discussing certain groups of people not being safe - it is automatically focusing on a small group and not the general public - focus is very often put on not-the-general-public - 'the general public' is not in any danger ever (unless you're talking about global nuclear war)

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[–] argv_minus_one@beehaw.org 0 points 2 years ago (2 children)

I’m asking everyone on this platform to be wary of anyone who focuses on politics but is unable to explain the issues themselves. They are probably trying to deceive you, are virtue signaling, or projecting their own insecurities and you should be skeptical of their approach.

Is that why? I notice some people will make some wild political assertion, and when I offer a counterargument or ask for evidence, they just repeat themselves. Frustrating.

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