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submitted 7 months ago by return2ozma@lemmy.world to c/world@lemmy.world
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[-] bamboo@lemm.ee 178 points 7 months ago

What infuriates me is this:

“[T]he United States has made clear that it will block Palestinian membership and statehood until direct negotiations with Israel resolve key issues, including security, boundaries and the future of Jerusalem.”

Why does Israel get membership in the UN, if these are preconditions for membership? Israel will never agree to Palestinian membership. A stable Palestinian state will likely never exist until Israel is defeated militarily and has no choice but to accept it.

[-] the_post_of_tom_joad@sh.itjust.works 86 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

When statements don't make sense, i find it helpful to cut out any part that offends logic and see if it becomes clearer. In this case i apply it like this:

“[T]he United States has made clear that it will block Palestinian membership and statehood.

There! The other parts were extraenous fluff to soften their perceived position.

(I know you already grok their position, I'm just sayin its a hack i like.)

[-] Queen___Bee@lemmy.world 14 points 7 months ago

That definitely does make it clearer... On a side note, I can appreciate a Stranger in a Strange Land reference when I see one.

[-] 0x0@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 7 months ago

It is clearer now without a pseudo-justification.

[-] Carrolade@lemmy.world 62 points 7 months ago

Never is a strong word.

Until 1995, when Israeli PM Rabin was assassinated by a right winger, they were moving towards a two state solution, to the point of the IDF forcibly removing their own Jewish settlements from the lands of the prospective Palestinian state.

After the assassination, Netanyahu became the next PM, and has served in the position for most of the time since, asides most of a decade in the 2000s where other Likud politicians held it. He reversed the policy of settler removal.

Try not to conflate the entire country with the crazy right winger leadership they have currently. The same leadership of strongmen that catastrophically failed to keep them safe back in October, which is the one single thing such a man says he is supposed to be good at.

All that said, I also support Palestinian entry as a UN member state, and am tired of the US unfairly favoring its treaty ally in this case.

[-] Linkerbaan@lemmy.world 24 points 7 months ago

After 50 years and heavy Palestinian concessions a state is almost established with heavy external pressure

Extremists from Netanyahus party assasinate the israeli PM. Wife of Rabin blames Netanyahu foe his death

Israel votes Netanyahu into power along with an extreme right wing cabinet and openly gets far more Genocidal than in the past

No guys this totally doesn't represent israel

This is israel. It is what is has always been. A Nazi Apartheid state.

[-] Carrolade@lemmy.world 18 points 7 months ago

It seems contradictory to me to say it has always been pursing genocide, when one of the elected politicians was moving in the other direction for years. A bit selective.

Perhaps we could look at the voter tallys in 1996, where Netanyahu won 1,501,023 to 1,471,566, and the events that were influencing the Israeli public at the time? It certainly doesn't help when there's 14 suicide bombings happening in Israel between 1993 and 1995 during the peace process. Being bombed generally does drive people towards militarism.

Regardless of the past, though, Israel is there now. With its nuclear arsenal, it will not be destroyed any time soon unless Iran somehow nukes it off the map through its missile defense. So, negotiation seems necessary.

[-] barsoap@lemm.ee 8 points 7 months ago

The issue isn't Netanyahu. Well he's a compounding issue but the core problem is that everyone but the leftest of lefties stopped believing in the peace process after Rabin's assassination. As the Haaretz said: Yigal Amir won. The right-wing approach to security, "antagonise Palestinians into submission", never got challenged by anyone since Rabin's death. Maybe it'll now get challenged as October 7th happened on the right's watch, so obviously they can't provide security, but don't expect the Israeli people to realise that in a fortnight, so far little is happening: The press is self-censoring because they know no Israeli wants to even look at what the IDF is doing in Gaza and the West Bank, protests are about Netanyahu's corruption (which is pretty much the only thing distinguishing him and Gantz, not politics) as well as families of hostages complaining about the Kahanites being more interested in killing Arabs than getting their relatives back. It's not (necessarily) the war they're opposed to but the priorities.

[-] Linkerbaan@lemmy.world -3 points 7 months ago

when one of the elected politicians was moving in the other direction for years. A bit selective.

Yeah and what did it result in? Same thing as every other "negotiation" from the last 75 years, More Genocidal Nazis slowly taking over Palestinian land while the Palestinians have to wait for the "peaceful negotiations".

The only difference between past israel and current israel is that current israel got so arrogant that they are forgetting to hide their Nazism. They are now flaunting what they have been doing for the past 75 years thinking themselves so much in the right that nobody will disagree with them.

Pretending that israel has ever had good-will to come to a peaceful conclusion is pure delusion. Israel is an Ethnostate deeply rooted in Apartheid. You cannot create an Ethnostate pecaefully just like the Nazis weren't peacefully expanding their Lebensraum.

[-] yetiftw@lemmy.world 4 points 7 months ago

nuance won't hurt you, I promise <3

[-] Linkerbaan@lemmy.world -4 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

Do we look at the Holocaust with nuance as well? Should the Jews have tried to negotiate with Adolf Hitler?

When someone decides to do Ethinc Cleansing to create an Ethnostate it's Nazi-O-Clock. All nuance goes out the window.

[-] HelloHotel@lemmy.world 4 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

All nuance goes out the window.

somehow, at some point in the conversation, the word "nuance" here has become double speak for Neo-liberal-style negotiations. but yeah, big picture, it’s Nazi-O-Clock!

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[-] bamboo@lemm.ee 18 points 7 months ago

To whatever extent Israeli civilians are more moderate, they’ve never truly been able to affect change. Israel’s history only started with a terrorist campaign of ethnic cleansing and genocide. Rabin’s efforts are truly exceptional in Israel’s history, and he was murdered for it. The return to genocide is simply a return to the norm.

Even if Israeli moderates were to win political power, it would only be temporary. Israeli terrorists saw no problem ethnically cleansing the land to invent their own state with only people they approved of, and if popular sentiment turns away, they no doubt would do it again to remove the new “undesirables”.

[-] tearsintherain@leminal.space 4 points 7 months ago

Thank you for reminding about the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin.

Not enough people realize the extent and level of religious fanaticism that exists in Israel.

[-] tearsintherain@leminal.space 13 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

There decades since Yitzhak Rabin's assassination and Israel has lurched only further to the right. One of the greatest obstacles to peace has been Israel's continual land grabs and illegal settlement building. That has pretty much been cemented as nationalist policy. Ben Gvir is a psychopath and his rise is telling of how far Israel has embraced religious fanaticism.

No one, however, offends liberal and centrist Israelis quite like Itamar Ben-Gvir. Ben-Gvir, who entered parliament in 2021, leads a far-right party called Otzma Yehudit, or Jewish Power. His role model and ideological wellspring has long been Meir Kahane, a Brooklyn rabbi who moved to Israel in 1971 and, during a single term in the Knesset, tested the moral limits of the country. Israeli politicians strive to reconcile Israel’s identities as a Jewish state and a democracy. Kahane argued that “the idea of a democratic Jewish state is nonsense.” In his view, demographic trends would inevitably turn Israel’s non-Jews into a majority, and so the ideal solution was “the immediate transfer of the Arabs.” To Kahane, Arabs were “dogs” who “must sit quietly or get the hell out.” His rhetoric was so virulent that lawmakers from both sides of the aisle used to walk out of the Knesset when he spoke. His party, Kach (Thus), was finally barred from parliament in 1988. Jewish Power is an ideological offshoot of Kach; Ben-Gvir served as a Kach youth leader and has called Kahane a “saint.”

Ben-Gvir, who is forty-six, has been convicted on at least eight charges, including supporting a terrorist organization and incitement to racism, compiling a criminal record so long that, when he appeared before a judge, “we had to change the ink on the printer,” Dvir Kariv, a former official in the Shin Bet intelligence agency, told me. As recently as last October, Netanyahu refused to share a stage with him, or even to be seen with him in photographs. But a series of disappointing elections persuaded Netanyahu to change his mind.

[-] Eyck_of_denesle@lemmy.zip 9 points 7 months ago

I would still blame the entire country as long as thing like "aliyah" exist. The fact that any jewish person or a convert can immigrate to a stolen land is crazy to me.

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this post was submitted on 10 May 2024
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