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this post was submitted on 16 Sep 2024
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Yeah, we (the West) screwed up big time. If Ukraine got full help in 2022, this war likely would be over the same year. Russia was very disorganized in initial invasion, and Ukraine only needed a bigger kick to push them back all the way.
2014 would have been even better
I don't know that Ukraine could have done this well in 2014, even with help. They had 8 years to prepare for the next round that they knew was coming.
I think there were some legitimate concerns about the potential nuclear threat as well as uncertainty regarding Russia's actual capabilities.
Now we've seen that Russia's claims don't hold any more water than a strainer, the west should be more aggressive with its assistance. The Ukrainians have already demonstrated that they are not just going to take it laying down and they're the only reason Russia hasn't moved on to invading other former Soviet states. I think we owe them all assistance we can give.
We have a habit of screwing over our allies. Especially in fighting situations.
This isn't an error. A proxy war at the expense of innocents has always been the plan. It's what we do. The rest is just lies we tell ourselves to feel good about it. Ukraine needs to join NATO afterwards so they won't retaliate with "terrorism" like everyone else has in the past. Bonus: Allied airfields on Russia's doorstep.
This is bullshit vatnik propaganda.
The west didn't expect Ukraine to do nearly as well, or Russia to be as much of a joke. We figured kyiv would be rolled in 2 weeks.
Coupled with political nervousness after the mess in the middle east, and rising China, the west has been far too cautious, doubly so with all the support Russia has been giving the far-right everywhere.
We need to hitch up our balls and push forward, the risk isn't Russia escalating, it's Russia winning and continuing to rebuild its empire while China pushes similarly in Asia.
This is a new axis forming, we either stop it now or pay a far greater price going forward.
Afghanistan. Iraq. Iran. Libya. Syria.
But, suuuure. This time it's different.
Ah yes, it's...
checks notes
the US fault that Russia invaded Ukraine. Right, makes perfect sense, carry on.
The only involvement the US or even most of the NATO countries have had in this complete shitshow has been to sell obsolete military hardware to Ukraine at a steep discount. It was probably cheaper to ship the stuff in bulk to Ukraine than it would cost to properly decommission it so might even have saved some money doing that.
Russia desperately wants to make this a fight with NATO or even better the US so they look like less of a laughing stock for losing this badly.
I understand where you're coming from. I think you're naive.
If we wanted the war to be won then we'd have already settled it with superior airpower and munitions. Instead, we offer limited assistance and imposed Vietnam-style geographic rules.
Don’t forget Vietnam and Korea.
The US is constantly enmeshed in wars, but when was the last time Americans actually won one? 1945?
That was 79 years ago. Almost one whole Biden.
Vietnam and Korea were hot wars. My examples are proxy wars where the locals retiliated with "terrorism".
We're achieving our goals in Ukraine right now, as we did in all my examples above. The last time we lost was Vietnam, unless we're also counting failed coup attempts (2020).
Doesn’t that describe Vietnam?
Is your point that the US goes to war to fund the military industrial complex rather than to achieve victory? Because otherwise I’m not understanding your point.
I don’t think any of those conflicts (including Ukraine) went the way the US wanted them to.
No. American and allied troops fought in the Vietnam conflict. Our strategy evolved in the Cold War and proxy wars. A proxy war is fought only with fiscal, humanitarian, and arms support.
For example, we destroyed Afghanistan in the 80's by supporting the mujahideen fighting against the Soviet Union: a proxy war. Unable to communicate what's been done, they resorted to extreme violence in September, 2001. So, we fucked 'em all the war back to 17th century religious persecution.
I'm a born American. I love so much about this country at the roots of the land and people I meet in it. But, it's totally fucking rotten at the top and we refuse to admit it. If we did then we'd have to do something about it. Then, it quickly becomes obvious that voting isn't going to do jack shit. That's scary as fuck.
That was the moron wing of US foreign policy.
Look again and tell me this is the same, Russia has been invaded by their version of Canada.
This is what we should have been doing in the 2010s, which we wasted because of the inbred moron wing of texas trying to control oil.
So, the reason the program has been so successful for decades is because it's being run by morons?
That's how you're backing your assertion of "vatnik propaganda"?
Wow. Good luck with that nonsense.
First, it hasn't been successful in the 2000s and 2010s.
Secondly, it's been "successful" if you want to call it, because we have UNIMAGINABLE RESOURCES!!!
We have an infinite ammo hack enabled, and we always have wall-hacking from all our fused intel sources.
The problem is, we're excellent at killing anyone we want to kill, that's trivial for us, what isn't easy is getting people to actually want to like us after we've just killed people they know.
Also a lot of our trouble in the middle east was encouraged by Iran and even Russia, those RPGs came from somewhere.