this post was submitted on 07 Aug 2023
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the_dunk_tank

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It's the dunk tank.

This is where you come to post big-brained hot takes by chuds, libs, or even fellow leftists, and tear them to itty-bitty pieces with precision dunkstrikes.

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Libs will never forgive Joey Steel for saving the world from fascism stalin-cig

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[–] Awoo@hexbear.net 80 points 2 years ago (4 children)

I sincerely don't understand how anyone can think they are helping the left by doing anticommunism. It doesn't stand up to any critical thought at all, it functions solely to move things rightwards and reinforce the status quo.

[–] Flinch@hexbear.net 56 points 2 years ago (3 children)

Propaganda is a hell of a drug, especially when you desperately want to believe that you're with the Good Guys

[–] Awoo@hexbear.net 49 points 2 years ago (1 children)

especially when you desperately want to believe that you're with the Good Guys

I come back to this over and over again. It's nationalism.

Once they take the position of being citizens of the world, they know longer see it in this baby-brained good vs bad shit, where the good is the US (they're all americans) or the general western empire. Once they're internationalists they stop this shit and they gain intellectual curiosity to learn.

[–] GarbageShoot@hexbear.net 28 points 2 years ago (3 children)

Once they take the position of being citizens of the world, they know longer see it in this baby-brained good vs bad shit, where the good is the US (they're all americans) or the general western empire. Once they're internationalists they stop this shit and they gain intellectual curiosity to learn.

There are a lot of anarcho-bidenist types (like @boredtortoise@lemm.ee ) who consider themselves to oppose all the evil states including their own, declaring that they cannot be chauvinists because they disavow the US, while uncritically parroting State Department views on its enemies. That doesn't matter to them because they are calling all entities involved "bad," while some nebulous people are what is "good," and these people must exist as a third camp to the feuds between the bad empires (don't think too hard about what constitutes an empire, btw).

Perhaps I am just free-associating, but I remember Engels talking about the Enlightenment (from the viewpoint of a liberal):

Every form of society and government then existing, every old traditional notion, was flung into the lumber-room as irrational; the world had hitherto allowed itself to be led solely by prejudices; everything in the past deserved only pity and contempt. Now, for the first time, appeared the light of day, the kingdom of reason; henceforth superstition, injustice, privilege, oppression, were to be superseded by eternal truth, eternal Right, equality based on Nature and the inalienable rights of man.

Engels is speaking in a somewhat different context, but you can see over and over a refusal to examine these "bad" entities more closely, to understand how they work and why they have survived except by the most generic gestures towards tyranny.

[–] Awoo@hexbear.net 16 points 2 years ago (3 children)

There are a lot of anarcho-bidenist types (like @boredtortoise@lemm.ee ) who consider themselves to oppose all the evil states including their own, declaring that they cannot be chauvinists because they disavow the US, while uncritically parroting State Department views on its enemies. That doesn't matter to them because they are calling all entities involved "bad," while some nebulous people are what is "good," and these people must exist as a third camp to the feuds between the bad empires (don't think too hard about what constitutes an empire, btw).

These ones are just liars.

Engels is speaking in a somewhat different context, but you can see over and over a refusal to examine these "bad" entities more closely, to understand how they work and why they have survived except by the most generic gestures towards tyranny.

It is again a rather religious behaviour. One that seems more like faith in a coming salvation rather than making salvation for themselves. Anyone actually trying to make salvation is to be rejected as not having the correct faith.

[–] GarbageShoot@hexbear.net 15 points 2 years ago (1 children)

These ones are just liars.

How do you know?

[–] Awoo@hexbear.net 14 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

while uncritically parroting State Department views on its enemies

For this reason.

Ultimately they are either self-aware liars or oblivious to the nationalism that lies within them. One way or another this is nationalist behaviour. The internationalists don't have such blatantly obvious national loyalties.

The key to unlocking these people is breaking the religious faith, and breaking the national loyalty that they lack consciousness of. They have a false consciousness.

[–] GarbageShoot@hexbear.net 11 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Fair enough. How would you say that one could break such a person's religious faith, as you put it?

[–] Awoo@hexbear.net 8 points 2 years ago

If I had that answer we'd be well on the way to revolution. If we break this wall the sheer numbers that marxists gain as allies skyrocket, you've seen how it is.

I don't know about the religious faith part yet, but we don't do much at all to promote internationalism or break this nationalist mindset. I think it's a prerequisite to further advancing this crowd of people.

[–] autismdragon@hexbear.net 6 points 2 years ago

These ones are just liars.

I know a fair few people like this. Some are "Freinds" that I dont discuss geopolitics with to avoid arguments. My experience with them is that its a pretty sincerely held belief. Not cynical at all.

[–] boredtortoise@lemm.ee 4 points 2 years ago

Yeah I don't believe the descriptioned types either.

[–] boredtortoise@lemm.ee 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Lol at the mention. Biden is a useless American right winger. Disawowing that and chauvinism is a long way to suddenly frame me into a bidenist 😉

[–] GarbageShoot@hexbear.net 18 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

I don't give a shit what you say about him when you repeat what he says about his enemies. You're the very definition of a useful idiot, the kind the state has made an effort to foster.

(The mention wasn't for you but so that people could see a recent example on this website of a certain type of brainworms )

[–] boredtortoise@lemm.ee 1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

Hey I get it. It's hard to find a stereotype to someone who doesn't fit. Send an honest dm some day if a person is more valuable than that show. In the meantime, I'm not the subject of this

We have those who you speak of as well and they're not that tough to spot or to mistake me as one.

[–] GarbageShoot@hexbear.net 15 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Hey I get it. It's hard to find a stereotype to someone who doesn't fit

"I'm not like other leftcoms!" I don't care, you aren't special and I've heard your dogshit opinions a thousand times before from other ultras who also thought they were special. Your opinions on the enemies of the imperial core are still inherited from its mouthpieces. Disavowing the state while repeating its lies does not actually give you a pass.

Here's a fun game: What do you think about Xinjiang?

[–] boredtortoise@lemm.ee 1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

I don't care, you aren't special

Now you're getting it! I'm not special. I'm just a nobody and I don't need anyone's imagination going wild about me.

Go on and comment on things on a random board. Let the people be.

It's ironic that all the monikers you are trying to slur me with are actually groups I've seen in the past want to exterminate the likes of me. You're registered on an instance which is described to oppose our oppressors so I've given you the benefit of the doubt for long.

I guess it's just human tribalism. Your imperialists and such despise the likes of me who are not. It's just a cognitive mistake. I don't hold it against anyone as humans have the capability of not following that urge if they want.

[–] GarbageShoot@hexbear.net 14 points 2 years ago (1 children)

As I recall, it was you who went on a communist instance and after the slightest provocation on another topic, went and insisted on your imagining of subjects, people, and places of which you know nothing, refusing all reasoning and evidence to the contrary.

[–] boredtortoise@lemm.ee 1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

Thanks for admitting provoking. Consider also that anticommunists try to provoke the likes of me with ad hominems, pejoratives and baseless assumptions. I don't see that being a behavioral path someone else would want to take.

[–] GarbageShoot@hexbear.net 8 points 2 years ago

What a silly thing to say

[–] Frank@hexbear.net 43 points 2 years ago

Realizing that America, NATO, Europe, and all the other imperial states and settler colonial states and all their cronies and hatchetmen weren't just the badguys, but were staggeringly evil in a way that cannot be completely encompassed by one person in one lifetime was a gradual process that took me like 8 years, and even then I'm still a lib sometimes.

[–] RedQuestionAsker2@hexbear.net 46 points 2 years ago (2 children)

It makes logical sense to me.

They still believe all of the atrocity propaganda. To them, socialism is this pure thing that deserves defending, but if they were required to defend socialist states, they would also have to disprove all of the stuff that they still believe.

So, in their minds, they are defending against tankies who just want to make the same "mistakes" as previous attempts at socialism. they are keeping socialism modern and adapting it to new circumstances with the power of hindsight. It's also easier to convert other people to socialism if you can convince them it won't be anything like those "evil authoritarian" socialist states.

In fact, if all the shit the state department said about socialist states was true, then I think it would probably be the right approach. But it's not, so it isn't.

[–] GarbageShoot@hexbear.net 26 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

You are right regarding some types of soicalists, but the Trots and other so-called Marxists who say "real Marxism has never been tried [or was immediately thwarted]" are the ones who have a completely incoherent position. "Yeah, I follow the principal of historical materialism, which means supporting an ideology that, in my own view, has 150 year history of uninterrupted failure and deceit."

[–] Awoo@hexbear.net 20 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

They still believe all of the atrocity propaganda. To them, socialism is this pure thing that deserves defending, but if they were required to defend socialist states, they would also have to disprove all of the stuff that they still believe.

So, in their minds, they are defending against tankies who just want to make the same "mistakes" as previous attempts at socialism.

But that's why it doesn't make sense. That's why it doesn't stand up to the most basic of critical thinking, any conversation with literally any marxist-leninist starts with acknowledging mistakes were made but refusing to completely disavow them, taking a measured approach to their successes and their errors.

They don't allow ANY critical thought on the topic, because they are wholly committed to their nationalist and anticommunist position. If they weren't nationalists they wouldn't feel committed to defending the propaganda of the US, and would be far more interested in a balanced and nuanced take on the socialist states, just as balanced takes on capitalist states are deserved. They are committed to emotionally reacting and sticking to their trained response of "no thought allowed" on these topics instead of pursuing a proper understanding.

And the "tankie" that they describe publicly as a person who wholly defends everything with a red flag is a cartoon caricature that does not exist. Simply a demon used to make people treat communists as heretics before they've said a word that might sway them. It's almost religious in a way, like the way that the church of the middle-ages used to keep "believers" from listening to anyone outside of the faith.

[–] KarlBarqs@hexbear.net 22 points 2 years ago

Tankie at this point just means anyone who has said anything even mildly positive about the USSR or China. I was called a tankie for saying that Gorbachev's shock doctrine dissolution of the Soviet Union was a disaster for the standard of living for the average person - soon as I said it I had people asking about the Hungarian Revolution, like that shit mattered in any way

[–] TrudeauCastroson@hexbear.net 25 points 2 years ago

Because they think it'll get people raised on cold war bullshit to go left.

Not saying everyone should immediately go into how Joe Steel was correct, but it's not convincing to say "yeah all those other socialist projects were either not socialist or stupid, but we will get it right this time" because it plays more into people smugly thinking free healthcare will result in banning blue jeans or whatever.

[–] Frank@hexbear.net 22 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Meh. Americans are Americans, and it takes a hell of a lot of deprogramming to shake that off. meow-tankie

[–] PM_ME_YOUR_FOUCAULTS@hexbear.net 11 points 2 years ago (1 children)
[–] Frank@hexbear.net 19 points 2 years ago (2 children)

No, we can't just shoot 330 million people, as tempting as that is sometimes.

[–] PM_ME_YOUR_FOUCAULTS@hexbear.net 21 points 2 years ago (1 children)

You clearly have not read the Black Book of Communism

[–] Frank@hexbear.net 7 points 2 years ago

No no you see we can't shoot 330 million people because Stalin shot them all and then Mao no food so there's no one left!