I was commenting earlier on how all or essentially all the power generation in the Moscow region is natural gas, and wondering how viable it'd be for Ukraine to target transmission pipelines.

[–] Vergissmeinnicht@lemmy.ca 4 points 19 hours ago (2 children)

with the huge amount of drones they seem to have at their disposal now they could probably set aside half a dozen each day to blow a hole in a random gas pipeline at a random location. Maybe once they're done dismantling Russia's oil refining infrastructure.

[–] thebestaquaman@lemmy.world 1 points 5 hours ago (1 children)

It doesn't make much sense to hit the pipelines if the refining infrastructure is broken. In that case they don't have anything to send through the pipelines anymore anyway.

Hitting pipelines is more of a short-term measure to cause pain. They're relatively easy to repair (much easier than advanced refining equipment), and there's often some redundancy so that gas can be shipped through a different part of the network if one pipeline is breached.

On the other hand, the pipelines span such a huge area that they're basically impossible to defend. If you're able to constantly hit pipelines all over the place, you're causing significant strain on enemy logistics. However, as mentioned by another comment, the pipelines are often buried, which makes them practically immune to light drones.

All in all, I think Ukraines strategy of targeting refineries directly is probably better in the long term, even though they're more well defended. It also has the advantage of forcing russia to try to defend the refineries. Even russia understands that defending the pipeline network is basically impossible, so they would rather just take the hits and repair the pipelines, so you wouldn't get the secondary benefit of straining their air defences.

[–] Vergissmeinnicht@lemmy.ca 1 points 2 hours ago

It doesn't make much sense to hit the pipelines if the refining infrastructure is broken. In that case they don't have anything to send through the pipelines anymore anyway.

For oil yes, of course. But for gas it's my understanding that it's processed closer to the extraction sites, so it might not necessarily be in reach (yet). Although it seems like Ukraine just hit a gas processing plant in Orenburg a few days ago.

If Ukraine can extend their reach to 2500-3000km then they could probably reach most gas processing plants.

[–] tal@lemmy.today 5 points 18 hours ago (1 children)

does a quick search

It sounds like the high-pressure transmission lines, in the US, need to be about three feet (1 meter) down. Dunno if Russia builds to the same standard.

I don't know how large of a warhead you need

a shaped charge might differ

and how accurate you'd need to be to penetrate one. Russia may not even have its transmission pipeline network buried, for all I know.

But because they span huge areas and can be struck at any point, I'd expect them to be pretty difficult to defend. Even if you ran defenses all along them, you necessarily are thinning your defenses. Do that, and said defenses can't handle a concentrated attack at any one point.

The problem of being the defender is that the attacker has the initiative and gets to decide where to concentrate for an attack.

For should the enemy strengthen his van, he will weaken his rear; should he strengthen his rear, he will weaken his van; should he strengthen his left, he will weaken his right; should he strengthen his right, he will weaken his left. If he sends reinforcements everywhere, he will everywhere be weak.

Sun Tzu, The Art of War

[–] Knoxvomica@lemmy.ca 4 points 17 hours ago

Look for areas where soil movement or erosion are occurring. Usually pipeline companies monitor for this and mitigate, but sometimes that can take years.