Socialism
#Welcome to /c/socialism
Socialism as a political system is defined by democratic and social control of the means of production by the workers for the good of the community rather than capitalist profit, based fundamentally on the abolition of private property relations.
Socialism is also a sociopolitical movement dedicated to the critique and dismantling of exploitative structures, including economic, gendered, ethnic oppression.
Socialism, as a movement, confronts these different systems of oppression as mutually conditioning, intersectional, and/or dialectically related within the current hegemonic order. It seeks to overcome oppression in a holistic manner without neglecting any particular axis so that it might be eliminated and genuine social emancipation may be realized. We recognize that Socialism cannot be achieved while structural oppression continues and workers are divided.
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#Posting Guidelines
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/c/Socialism is a sub for socialists, and a certain level of knowledge about socialism is expected. If you are derailing discussions or promoting non-socialist positions, your comments may be removed, and you may receive a warning or a ban. If you are not a Socialist but are learning about it, be polite, or you will be banned for trolling. Low effort images: powerful expressions of socialism are always welcomed in r/socialism. Expressions may vary including pictures, cartoons, comics, illustrations, and even memes. However, those expressions which lack quality (does not clearly shows a socialistic construct), or has low-quality insights (possibly for karma and/or upvotes) may not be posted. Thus, those images that do not meet these quality standards will be removed.
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Socializing art means giving people more free time to pursue their artistic passions allowing them to develop those skills to produce quality works.
If you want to talk about fascist art then you need to be willing to address the elephant in the room that is the open embrace of AI "art" by fascists. They were not only the first to start doing it but have pretty much made it their entire aesthetic. There's nothing proletarian about mass-produced AI slop; it is a modern symbol of fascism and reflects the fascist disdain for creativity & imagination, driven directly by the tendency of creatives & artistic types to be anti-fascist on account of open mindedness being a boon to the creative mind.
What do you mean when you say "socialising art"? Because I mean socialising labour.
How do you get mass production without the proleteriat?
If we have establised lack of mass production does not absolve its "validity" to fascism then it may be worthwhile re-examining that presumed axiom.
There's more to art than just labor.
Redundant question in a world that is becoming increasingly automated. We're literally talking about computer algorithms generating content on their own without human labor involved.
We have established nothing of the sort and so the axiom remains firmly in place.
That's exactly right. It is paid art where the quibble is, right? So if advancement in technology causes unemployment why does marxism propose not to burn the tech down? How do we sublimate this? GenAi is effectively showing us the limits of trade unionism, it is forcing us to confront capitalism itself and not be happy with concessions anymore.
All dead labour is still labour.
Do you think if you haven't figured it out it makes it true? I mean I'm happy to clarify but at some point people may take it personally, and therefore may just need some space. I've sent a link in the other reply if you're interested in further reading.
Now this is idealism. You have no evidence for this assertion at all; it's purely speculative.
And no, "paid art" wasn't where the quibble was. That is a problem, certainly, but the crux of my issue with AI art is its soullessness and that it takes away the experience of creating & consuming art from real people and replacing it with a complete imitation devoid of the same substance. AI "art" doesn't make you feel anything, think anything, or give you a memorable experience. It lacks the passion of something conceived of by a human mind and brought to fruition by human skill.
And all automated mass production is still mass production.
Curious what you think I haven't "figured out"? You're already making this pretty personal with this very clear dig at my ability to understand so it's a little late for the hand-wringing when the sentence before it is basically an insult.
I think you are right there. The metasphysical conception of creativity is not in keeping with dialectical materialism.
So you agree that the proleteriat is involved. And under capitalism this tech alienates workers.
That was a response to the condescension here:
^you could have clarified why instead of coming up with that nothingness. You just made a circular argument. And it was to a response to what I thought was a common ground you found. No you want to retreat to a supposed moral high ground.
I think given what you said about soulness that is obviously not dialectical materialist take I think we have reached a cross road here. It makes sense why the arguments against the arguments you have made are taken as arguments as you as a person.
I will leave it there for now. Have a good day.
Unserious af
Automating the proletariat's necessity away.
So should we then harken back to reaction? Re-employ the weaver and burn the loom?
(And all dead labour is still labour anyway. The machine is the product of labour)
Why should the proletariat strive toward replacing their self-expression with mindless, autogenerated slop manufactured by a machine? I genuinely cannot think of a more effective way a capitalist society could create a false-consciousness and cultural hegemony. Not only are large studios and producers part of the superstructure, but any and all individuals part of the masses should be conditioned into giving up the last vestiges of ideological resistance and means of preventing alienation from their fellow worker.
I'm not even talking about working artists, I'm talking about the masses casting aside any method of self-expression other than the machine provided to them by the capitalists.
Could you please explain how this is not an argument against automation and socialisation of labour? If we aren't to use the output of capitalist production should we do away with technology, and if so then how would we ever hope to overpower such a system? Should you burn your phone and not use the internet? Both have been used for cultural hegemony. Isn't a given that any technology could be used for their purposes and isn't it then on us to repurpose it for our needs?
Because I do not view human self-expression on an individual scale as something that should be automated away as superfluous labour. Art creation is already socialized, that's the entire idea behind anyone of any skill level being able to do it. Cooking, indie film, paintings, memes, shitposts, doodles, cartoons, singing, music, all of these avenues of expression have readily accessible entry points, and some of them like pencil drawing don't cost more than 2 dollars a year no matter what skill level you are. I view art created by the masses as the proletariat attempting to reclaim the humanity that capitalism has alienated them from. Relegating that last vestige of connection with their fellow workers is not only dystopian, but antithetical to communism's end goal of de-alienating the proletariat.
The internet is a communication network. A phone is a machine. I don't see how these items are replacing anything except less-efficient technologies. If that's what you want to argue human art is then that's where we disagree. Human expression isn't a "technology" that can be automated into obsolescence, because at the end of the day, why? What is accomplished by allowing a machine to create a mono-culture where all works are inevitably the same?
There are a lot of presumptions there that are not a given. Maybe you could clarify what you are alluding to isn't an appeal to the metaphysical concept of human creativity? We should be dialectical materialists after all.
How does AI's existence threaten people's ability to put paint on a canvas?
It's so weird to see people argue that on the one hand AI generated art is slop that nobody wants to see, and on the other that it's going to make artists obsolete.
"The enemy is both weak and destined to fail by its mere merits while simultaneously strong and will cause in-groups doom if not fought with the most severe measures"
Where have I heard such thought patterns before.
indeed
They are not? They are expressing themselves via new technology.
No need to call them "artists" and I do think it should be stated that it was made with AI (and also if it was made digitally or analog or whatever. This is not specific to AI)
Fascists also made the gym and self improvement their thing.
Bench pressing does not make me a Nazi. Using AI to make art does not make me a Nazi either.
Another strawman argument. Never called you a Nazi, never said using AI makes you one.
Engage with what I actually wrote or move along.
Yes you did. You have the tendency to not know what you said. Your intent does not matter.
By saying that AI art is fascist symbolic and engaging with it furthers along the fascists disdain, you are saying that one supports fascism in some way by using AI art.
Therefore you are calling people fascist when using AI to make art.
I believe you are the one that needs to engage with what you wrote.
This exchange is over. The others have made better points and are less antagonistic than i am and thus more useful for you to talk with anyway.
Much of the anti-AI narrative is literally being funded promoted by large right wing corps https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRq0pESKJgg
Some points from the video to consider
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
Never, not once, at all, ever, did I say anything about copyright. I didn't even allude to it. I'm not anti-AI, either, for the record. Just in case that needs to be said.
You're attacking an argument I didn't make with a video that isn't relevant to what I'm saying. Please actually engage with what I am arguing; not what someone else is saying.
My point was that anti AI narrative is directly sponsored by large far right corps.
Most obvious lie ever