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If I were Reddit or Facebook I would divide and conquer the Fediverse
(sh.itjust.works)
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this post was submitted on 26 Jun 2023
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So you're pretending that users who call for defederating an alt-right instance are basically trolls that created their account just for that and to divide users? When it's well known that it's alt-right communities that are filled with bots and foreign troll farms?
Ok.
At the same time "people" against it keep recreating new discussions about being against defederation... Seems pretty sus to me 🤔 You're sure you're barking at the right tree? I'm starting to suspect that you guys are just a bunch of EH (or whatever) users coming here to cause trouble... It would fit with the fact that a whole bunch of anti-defederation users were also hanging around or moderating on the local T_D community until it was banned.
You know you can create your own instance and you can be its sole user so you get to chose what you do with it? The admin here decided to give users democratic control over the instance and contrary to a Nation, it's very very easy to move to another instance if your disagree with the will of the majority so much that you don't feel welcome anymore.
I think I get where they're coming from, it's like how sometimes how I'll pop on over to /r/conservative every now and then to read through some of the posts, although the majority is "the schools are turning our kids trans"
I like to see things from other people's perspective, despite how Internet opposed to it I may be. When I hear a new story for example, there's typically two versions of it. One from a voice that seems reasonable and well tempered and one that's rash and unhinged.
Often I'll find that the truth sometimes lies somewhere in between, not saying it's right in the middle, but having a fuller perspective helps me come to own conclusions.
With that said, I don't think this way of consuming media works for all people or even most people. I'm a pretty objective person, maybe even to a fault. I'm not offended easily, which makes viewing communities that many would find delusional and offensive not an unpleasant experience for me.
Again, people who don't agree with the way an instance is managed can just take their luggage and leave for an instance they prefer or they can create their own instance. That's decentralization baby!
Feels like the crypto crowd, people complaining about management because they don't understand what decentralization means.
Not happy? Create your own project and manage it however you like. Be the change you want to see, that's the power you're given here and that you don't have in the real world!
But now you are asking for the equivalent of every reddit user to make their own subreddit, host it and curate a feed to it, so they can browse it.
I mean sure, but it'd be like saying, you don't like the options for food, so grow your own, the seeds are there. You may want some junk food, but you may also want some organic vegitable produce or something inbetween. Supermarkets are double edges sowrds with everything inbetween, but to open your own/grow your own/source your own from the bulk suppliers, although possible, is astronomically more man hours of curation time.
But with all that said, the initial and I think leading point of the post was not the indivdual filtering, but rather, that they think a divide and conquer approach would be most effective against a Fediverse. Where one would want to prevent the expansion and adoption of a fediverse as a threat of info hoarding.
I'd be inclined to agree that as pack animals a NT person is going to want to group up in the largest instance. So, the larger the instance, the more likely they are going to want to join it. And should it get huge amounts of people, they'd get fomo.
If there are as many instances as there are subreddit equivalents, for want of the accurate name, people just wont bother that much, no?
The point of decentralization is exactly that though! People don't need to be all under the same roof for things to work, this way no central authority can control what's happening.
Your food example doesn't work because in this case creating your own instance doesn't prevent you from interacting with the other instances unless you're acting in a way that makes them defederate from yours, so you can eat whatever you want as long as you don't take a shit in your neighbors plate.
Same as #1, the point of decentralization is to divide things to prevent control.
You don't understand how the fediverse works if you experience fomo for an instance because it's bigger. It doesn't matter what instance you sign up to as long as it's federated with the other ones you want to interact with and that won't be an issue unless you join an instance populated by morons and if you do you probably deserve to not have access to the whole fediverse because it shows you're not intelligent or mature enough not to associate with morons. And worst case just create a new account on another instance if you're not happy that the one you signed up to is defederated!
As I said, I feel like I'm arguing with the crypto crowd about decentralization all over again.
We can toss this right back at you. If you're all for defederating anything you don't like, there's other instances to use.
Well I'm the one calling for respecting the will of the admin which is that the instance be managed democratically, I'm not the one complaining that defederation is bad after people voted in majority in favor of defederating an alt right instance. It's not about what I don't like, it's about what the majority wants, which seems to go against your opinion but in favor of mine so I don't know why I should be leaving 🤷
You sure about that? You're one of the main people that was pushing to defederate exploding-heads, which clearly hasn't happened. Please elaborate how you're "in the majority"
A vote took place and defederation won. As for why it hasn't happened yet? Go ask The Dude, he seemed keen on defederating Lemmygrad but not so much an alt-right instance.
Our complaints are part of an ongoing conversation about the future of the fediverse. This is a super important moment, and this is the right time for us to flesh out all the little details in our arguments. It's fine for you to disagree, but it's weird for you to jump in and complain about the fact that we're sharing our opinions.
We're not exactly doing a mutiny or anything. We are sharing our opinions on a forum.
You're literally and explicitly intolerant.
The way this instance is managed has been decided already and you don't agree with it, it's that simple. There's no discussion to be had since you're in favor of removing a right the admin gave the users (voting to defederate an instance). Take your pick, there's plenty of other instances to choose from and worst case create your own with your own rules.
And no we're not having a conversation about the future of the fediverse since you're expressing an uninformed opinion because you don't understand decentralization. Deciding the future of the fediverse would require centralization, the whole point is that each part can go in whatever direction it goes, no one can decide how the whole thing should work. If that's what you want then go back to Reddit and apply for an admin job, then you can discuss with people who have power over the direction a whole semi-decentralized system goes.
You are... taking part in the conversation with me. So you do think there's a conversation to be had. And this whole site is a conversation site.
You're worked up. Relax. I haven't hurt you.
But this can also be done by going to the defederated instance directly. Just like you would visit the subreddit directly because it would rarely show up in /r/all
This is exactly it.
Defederation, to my mind (and someone feel free to correct me) is about minimizing a given server's exposure to other servers that, by one definition or another, are problematic. Bots made out of the control of the people maintaining the server, servers with a large concentration of trolls, or other factors that either create risk for an instance owner or a shitty experience for the users as a net group they support.
For anyone crying out "Censorship! Hive minds and safe spaces for soy bois!" - these other instances don't just disappear. You can still reach them, still read them, still make an account there, still capture RSS feeds, etc. etc. As a user, you have plenty of ways to see and interact with whatever instance you choose, even if one instance is defederated from another.
Both explodingheads* and lemmygrad, in my opinion, are appropriate candidates for defederation with the above in mind. Both far-right and far-left politically focused communities with loose moderation are prone to brigading and, given laws around hate speech in Canada, create legal risks for sh.itjust.works (yes, lemmygrad too, calls for or support of genocide against racial or religious minorities are hate speech no matter what your rationale is). Cutting off direct interaction between these instances is a protection to our admin's resources and level of liability.
But if you, personally, want to engage with these communities, there's literally nothing stopping you, you just can't do it from here. Stop expecting that one specific instance will spoon-feed you everything you want, every time - that's how we got to where we are with mainstream social media. Where splinters exist, figure out ways around them.
*mentioned though I think we're still federated with EH? What's the hold up?
Nope. I'm saying defederation plays into the hands of BigSocial. They're laughing as we divide ourselves so they can easily conquer.
Many troll farms are not foreign, you xenophobe!
And are YOU "pretending" that every shitposter and non-politically-correct interlocutor is a "foreign" (??) troll bot?
Remember, we didn't leave reddit because of trolls. We left reddit because of overbearing admins. I don't want to also leave lemmy because of overbearing admins.
Bot confirmed
Many troll farms are not foreign, you xenophobe!It's a Canadian instance so yeah, troll farms are foreign.
BigSocialAlright, you're just pissed because it's your friends that are getting deplatformed, you just made that pretty clear.
And are YOU "pretending" that every shitposter and non-politically-correct interlocutor is a "foreign" (??) troll bot?No, I'm just stating a fact, the majority of troll farms are impersonating alt-right people, not people on the left and it's an alt-right instance people are asking to see defederated because the extremes left instance is already defederated anyway.
Remember, we didn't leave reddit because of trolls. We left reddit because of overbearing admins. I don't want to also leave lemmy because of overbearing admins.I just gave you the solution, be your own admin, create your own instance, shitpost wherever you want and let this instance be managed the way the admin decided it should be.
Edit:
That's fucking rich!
In your history:
https://sh.itjust.works/comment/449630
So you just proved that you don't mind defederation as long as it suits your interests. How hypocritical of you... Which is funny because that's always what happens when looking at the post history of the anti-defederation, they have a comment somewhere about them agreeing with censorship of some sort but are screaming that all censorship is bad if it concerns something they're attached to.
F off back to exploding heads you troll.
I want to keep reddit & meta corporate goons from taking over this corner of the internet. That's completely different from preventing two people from communicating via federated networks. This is totally consistent with giving control to the users. I want the users to have control, and to NOT have it taken away by admins. In both scenarios this is what I'm arguing for, and that's clear and obvious.
If you talk this way to people who respectfully disagree, you're the same kind of toxic person that you want to ban. The defederation is fueled by hate. You're so eager to exile. And that's consistent with your ugly remarks to me.
*giving control to the users.*Like by deciding democratically how the instance should be managed?
You don't understand how decentralization works if you think Meta or whatever can take control of a decentralized platform like Lemmy and the point still stands, you're pro defederation if it fits your (uninformed) values but against it if it doesn't but you create a post against defederation which is basically virtue signalling that you're so pro free speech and individual responsibility when the truth is you're just an hypocrite.
And of course democracy includes sharing our opinions about how to run things.
And if you don't think corporations can undermine grass roots movements then you're the one who's uninformed.
Opinions have been shared and a vote happened and you're asking for the possibility to vote on something be removed. How democratic of you.
Decentralization prevents corporations from doing anything against it, they can create their own instance if they want to, it will never prevent people from just creating a branch of the whole project, that's the beauty of open source code and decentralization. Lemmy turns to shit? Take the code and create Lemmu with a Lemurian as a mascot to replace it, that's all.