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this post was submitted on 10 Dec 2023
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I don't hate them. I said certain ones are naive (aggravatingly so, to clarify further). Too many people talk and act as if they can choose this time and keep that ability to choose next time.
If you have the sense to see what you stand to lose in this dumb FPTP system, then we are in the same boat. I understand the desire to have your elected leaders actually do something progressive, or doing something that makes you truly proud of them.
But as someone said, voting is a chess move, not a love letter.
in the time that I've been voting... the US has only slid right. The democrats have done exceedingly little to halt that.
Rear guard delaying actions, to use the military parlance, do not win wars. Biden is moderate only in consideration that the GOP are so much further to the right as to actively embrace fascism. We cannot keep acting as we always have and expect something to magically fix itself. So now is the time to start changing how we vote and the people we send to be voted for.
it's really that simple.
It's not. We are four years too late. We need to prevent a fascist takeover, then try to make progress.
That is what they said last time, too. Complete with a promise of “one term”
Why should anyone believe you (and Biden) this time?
What alternative do you have? What viable plan can you enact to change the likely outcome and still avoid fascism?
"you'll vote for who we tell you, and you'll like it. By the way. You can either choose [objectively bad] or [worse] candidates. HOW DARE YOU ask for better."
that all you're saying. You're arguments are unconvincing... and not even addressing the point: with BIDEN/the 'moderate' democrats... we're still sliding into fascism. Just not as fast as we would with Trump. So. are you really concerned about fascism... or do you just want it on your terms?
Ask all you want. Wish for them, even. But that's not an actionable plan, and that's the problem. That's why I point out that progressive ideologues are naive.
Who do you suggest we all vote for, and how do you plan to convince the "herd of cats" that is the political left?
Getting kind of tired of answering this.
Bernie. AoC. Even Phillips would be better.
Sorting it out would be a lot easier if the “herd of cats” as you called us got a legitimate say in, I don’t know, not-actually-rigged primaries.
That would be lovely. But that's still wishful thinking, not an actual plan, and that's the problem. The reality is the primaries are "rigged" by a fuck-ton of money, which you nodded to in your own assessment. We can't have nice things as long as money decides most elections.
But there's also, in my opinion, the greater problem of the tribal right. They can literally invent their own reality, stoke the various "Panics," and lose none of their voters. They will vote as reliable bloc with the unified purpose of defeating their invisible and insidious enemies, be they imagined demons, "woke Leftists," or some other invented monsters.
I call the Left "a herd of cats," because we generally have no unified purpose. People, rightly, ask their leaders, "What have you done for me lately," but that is a privilege we no longer have when right wing Fascism is a year away.
I want good leaders, too, but I want to survive to make them happen, and a year is simply not long enough to build the money and momentum needed in this FPTP system.
Still, I hope you and everyone vote for their favorite person in the primaries, and maybe we'll get that miracle candidate by pure luck.
That's exactly the point I'm getting tired of making. the DNC has been "surviving to make it happen" for longer than I've been a voter. The only presidential candidate that really generated excitement was Obama. even then, that turned out to be surprisingly hollow. Obamacare turned out to be lackluster, even before the GOP got their hands on it and ripped out a lot of it horse trading.
every other finalized candidate has been insanely disappointing. the only time any of them even bother to acknowledge that millennials and gen z even exist is when some staffer points out 'gee your polling really sucks. they don't like you'. then they run something out about something they think we still care about (how much you wanna bet the next one is reducing import costs on avacado toast?) I.E. Biden's silence on abortion. (he's personally apposed to unrestricted access but keeps his mouth shut because he ain't dumb.) (did he even actually try to codify RvW?) or the student loan debt (which so far, isn't so much anything new, but rather, honoring agreements that were- fraudulently- ignored?) (the, uh, student loan debt that took a gone-viral report on that bullshit to get his administration to even look at.)
at a certain point, you have to stop treading water waiting for the ship to come back and start swimming to the island. the ship ain't coming back.
thank you
And the time before that, and the time before that….. it’s literally what they say every four years.
I don't know about that, I've been paying attention since 2004ish and I don't remember Romney being portrayed as a destroyer of democracy, his big thing was "binders of women" and tying his dog to the roof of his car... Lol Same with McCain, our biggest issue with McCain was Palin and the absolute joke of a person she is with all the newspapers she definitely totally reads.
Technically, Romney was before I was legally allowed to vote. Just saying.
McCain… the rhetoric was there if it was less “end of democracy” and more … a different kind of end to democracy? I dunno. They’ve been using scare tactics to insist we need to vote for their still-pretty-bad candidate.
(Except Obama, I didn’t think I’d like him… but he was okay.)
They can't do anything as the minority, and as the majority they need 60 Senate votes to do anything more meaningful than budget reconciliation. Our country is designed to make change difficult, as the Senate filibuster proves. We would need 50 Senate votes to change that, and Democrats fell barely short in 2020. The most change they've been able to do is with Obamacare when they had a 60 seat majority for 2 months. Those 2 months are the only time in recent history Democrats have had a commanding majority, but even then they were still beholden to centrists like Lieberman to maintain the 60 count.
There's a vicious cycle in American politics. Democrats will win the majority when Republicans massively fuck up. They'll pass legislation that can't be more progressive unless we have more senators. Voters will be unhappy the legislation isn't better, staying home and leading Republicans to win. Republicans see their extremism as vindicated and are emboldened. We've seen this happen twice already. First with the Tea Party in 2010, second with Trumpism in 2016. When Republicans win, they drive us right.
Both parties are shaped more by their wins than their losses. Romney in '12 and Trump in '16 show this really well. If we want to push the party and the country to left, we have no choice but to continue voting.
And won't do what they campaigned on as the majority.
Democrats will always fall barely short. They will always stand in their own way. There are always enough manchins.
So goes the excuse, yes. No matter how great the majority, centrists always find enough no votes.
This is such a bullshit take it kind of pisses me off. Let me explain.
First, the only reason democrats have as much trouble in federal elections is all the freaking time is because they do Jack shit to support local campaigns. Which, leads to republicans gerrymandering the fuck out of districts.
Also, leads to a dire lack of new and up-coming canidates to source from… leading to the same lackluster “always been around” canidates that are unappealing.
But democrats, as a voting block, are not actually minorities. But they struggle getting the vote out precisely because a) there’s little support for local campaigns and b) the federal canidates are… rather underwhelming.
There’s exceptions who’ve managed to get there in spite of the DNC/national leadership.
But they’d never get the presidential nomination because actual progressives scare the fuck out of their corpo overlords.
Be fair. They support centrists when they have progressive primary challengers.
you're right. And of course the centrist looses because "I'm not that or that" is a really bad platform to be on.
I appreciate your response nonetheless and that you were civil towards me even if you disliked my opinion. Genuinely, thank you for that.
I do think you touch on some good points about local candidates and support. I think things are better now, but I do distinctly recall that it was lacking for a good part of 2008 - Present.
When it comes to federal candidates, I honestly think it's a mix -- yes, the candidates could stand to be better and a lot more appealing. I don't think it's a mistake that the more charismatic and friendly Democrat candidates have done well. I think too though that voter responsibility is a consideration. Even if the candidates are less than stellar, it's important to go vote, because the less stellar Democrat is still better than the best Republican. I think the best way to look at it is that both ends need to be responsible -- there need to be candidates that are genuine and spirited in some regard. And blue voters need to vote for them even if there's room for improvement.
There's never going to be a perfect candidate -- but that doesn't mean we can't have a good candidate. I didn't quite appreciate that second part until what you said. I don't think it changes my view about voting for Biden, but it does help me understand the consternation about it more. I can see what you mean by being tired of all the voting, just for things to be where they are. It can be a two pronged effort to both inspire voters with a good candidate and encourage voters to show up. I think the idea of a shared responsibility makes the whole nomination process and campaigning feel more like a partnership with the voter, which it should feel like.
I don't know about a progressive candidate never getting the nomination either -- I don't think any barriers they could put up would stop a really good candidate. Their strength is overstated, I think. Maybe I'm just refusing to accept a pessimistic reality, but if we don't fight like we have a chance, we aren't going to have a chance. Corpo overlords are only invulnerable if we think they are.
This is a tangent, but I saw it happen before, when I worked for a petrochemical company. Consumer goods manufacturers were pledging to stop using single use plastics because customers were demanding them to be more sustainable. It would've been devastating to my company's revenue if that happened, so corporate started looking at how to reliably recycle plastics and reuse them all the way on the chemical feedstock level. Collective bargaining is incredibly powerful.
I hope everyone actually moves away from single use plastics. Instead of making pledges they have no intention of honoring and "looking into" things they'll never actually do.
My understanding is that the work is being seriously pursued -- as in actual dollars have been spent and there's equipment currently proving out the tech. It's a far cry from all the other greenwashing the company does and did. There's enough going on that I think it's legit, especially since this was an industry wide effort.
To clarify, their plan is to turn "single use plastics" into just "plastics" by chemically reprocessing the waste from single use plastics. You wouldn't be melting the plastic and then reblowing it - you'd be melting it and reacting it several times first.
I don't expect you to believe me a priori, I would certainly have my doubts if I hadn't been in the department. I hope it pans out because it wouldn't just cut down on plastic waste. There would be value in collecting the waste all over the oceans, and if there's one thing you can rely on, it'll be some venture capitalist starting a company to harvest all of that.
Until there's results, there's no reason to believe anything they say. It's just vapor to stop companies from abandoning single use plastics.
That's fair. There's always a chance they kill it within the next few years too.
Don't lie to me. I know how you've responded to me in the past when I didn't include that I was voting for Biden in my comment.
I very much doubt that.
And the move expected of the progressives you hate is always "forfeit."
You said it. Not me. Lol
I know what centrists expect from progressives.
Are the centrists here in the room, now?
I'm talking to one, ain't I?