168
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 07 Mar 2024
168 points (100.0% liked)
the_dunk_tank
15918 readers
1 users here now
It's the dunk tank.
This is where you come to post big-brained hot takes by chuds, libs, or even fellow leftists, and tear them to itty-bitty pieces with precision dunkstrikes.
Rule 1: All posts must include links to the subject matter, and no identifying information should be redacted.
Rule 2: If your source is a reactionary website, please use archive.is instead of linking directly.
Rule 3: No sectarianism.
Rule 4: TERF/SWERFs Not Welcome
Rule 5: No ableism of any kind (that includes stuff like libt*rd)
Rule 6: Do not post fellow hexbears.
Rule 7: Do not individually target other instances' admins or moderators.
Rule 8: The subject of a post cannot be low hanging fruit, that is comments/posts made by a private person that have low amount of upvotes/likes/views. Comments/Posts made on other instances that are accessible from hexbear are an exception to this. Posts that do not meet this requirement can be posted to !shitreactionariessay@lemmygrad.ml
Rule 9: if you post ironic rage bait im going to make a personal visit to your house to make sure you never make this mistake again
founded 4 years ago
MODERATORS
Yeah, but, at the time when it was being formed, Israel was already supported by UK, US, and Nazi Germany to varying degrees since the beginning. Antisemites supported it from the beginning and, yes, stuck around, unlike USSR, but it is still a terrible look that USSR ever supported it. So, I don't think that should be the selling point for why USSR/Marxists are not antisemitic. It actually supports the point of the other user, which is to say, that there's probably a history of at least some antisemitism among USSR/Marxists.
Well, this argument could be made about pretty much anything, sure. It's kind of a pointless thing to say. I shouldn't be critical of the move to support Zionism because I know better? Anyway, I'm not even saying this is definitive proof of virulent and perversive (pervasive, even) antisemitism in Marxist history, that's not my point, but including this as a proof to dispel the idea of antisemitism in Marxism/USSR is laughably ironic.
I think the relations building caused by being allies against the nazis for ww2 caused several miscalculations. That and of course the horrors of the events of ww2 and meaning well with regards to protecting the jewish people.
This seems fairly plain to me. I'm not sure why it needs to be complicated? It seems easy to miscalculate that the project to give jews a home is a good thing in light of the holocaust rather than an antisemitic thing, particularly when everyone involved is actively spreading anti-holocaust information and germany was being reconstructed into a non-nazi entity.
I'd have to double check but I feel like I recall reading even Einstein supported it until to became clearer it was a mistake.
Sure, my point is not that though.
My point is that, even at the time, antisemites had always supported Israel and now sitting here and citing Stalin's (debatable) support for Israel as proof of Marxism/USSR not being antisemitic is simply not a good point of evidence. I agree, I don't understand why it has to get complicated? Even if USSR had good intentions, using that as proof against Leftists today arguing that there was antisemitism in USSR/Marxism just won't work well.
If we take a counterfactual and pretend that Stalin vehemently opposed the creation of Israel, would this be better as a point of evidence that Communists are not antisemitic? I don't think so. I think that if that were the case, it would be a widely used example by anti-communists that Communists are antisemitic, since they opposed the creation of a Jewish state in the wake of the Holocaust.
Unironically, yes, it would be better.
There are also other comments saying Stalin did not support Israel but was pushed to by Zionist people in the USSR before reversing course.
And the point isn't about how anti-Communists interpret anything, they interpret anything and everything in bad faith so they're irrelevant. There's someone here saying there was antisemitism in USSR/Marxist circles (NOT my argument, by the way) when you responded with the proof that it isn't the case because, among other things, Stalin helped found Israel. My argument is that is not a good piece of evidence there and you probably shouldn't use it in the future if you don't want to make yourself and USSR look particularly bad.