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submitted 1 year ago by elouboub@kbin.social to c/men@kbin.social

You will be no better than the people you'll fight against. I've seen it happen on every pro-men subreddit, and if this place isn't aggressively moderated to dispel hopelessness, negativity, and prejudice, it'll just turn into hate.

Incel, mens-rights activist, red-pill, black-pill, MGTOW, etc. don't let the haters join otherwise this community will end up just like the aforementioned.

Egalitarian from a male perspective is what we should be, not pro-male (I say male because of sex and gender).

Be excellent to each other.

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[-] a-man-from-earth@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago

Did you read the pinned welcome thread?

It is because we are egalitarian and pro-human that we are pro-men as well as pro-women. And because men are human and have human rights, men also deserve to have their rights advocated for. This community welcomes everyone who comes without hate or bigotry, to discuss men's issues.

[-] elouboub@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

That's great. Hopefully the moderators will uphold that view.

Despair and the longing for understanding, can easily be exploited to guide people onto a path of anger and hate.

Good luck with the community.

[-] darq@kbin.social 0 points 1 year ago

I just did. And honestly it doesn't leave me hopeful for this space. Boosted comments in that thread overly generalise feminism and even place blame on feminism as a whole for issues that men face. Comments saying that feminism is an egalitarian movement are reduced.

Men's advocacy is important. There are perspectives on issues that men offer that other genders cannot, the same way there are perspectives that women can offer but other genders cannot. And not all feminist advocacy is created equal, some of it is not great. But the generalised blame game is precisely the sort of tribalistic thinking that so often leads men's advocacy spaces into misogyny, where women's advocacy is treated as an infringement on men.

[-] a-man-from-earth@kbin.social 0 points 1 year ago

honestly it doesn't leave me hopeful for this space

Then you need to adjust your perspective. Feminism is an ideology that has from the start been steeped in misandry. That is what we oppose. Sure, there are individual feminists who may promote actual equality. But show us the actual feminist thought leaders, academics, lobbyists and politicians who do. The majority in practice support sexist ideas and policies.

Comments saying that feminism is an egalitarian movement are reduced.

Because unfortunately, in practice feminism too often is not egalitarian, but paints men collectively as oppressors. We oppose that unhealthy, sexist view of men.

the sort of tribalistic thinking that so often leads men's advocacy spaces into misogyny, where women's advocacy is treated as an infringement on men.

We are pro women's advocacy. We simply oppose misandry as well as misogyny.

[-] darq@kbin.social 0 points 1 year ago

Then you need to adjust your perspective.

No, I don't actually need to do anything. I'm stating my opinion, like everybody else is. I just think that you are wrong. And I think that that perspective will lead this space nurturing the sort of tribalistic blame-game that has been seen in previous overtly misogynistic MensRights spaces.

Feminism is an ideology that has from the start been steeped in misandry. That is what we oppose. Sure, there are individual feminists who may promote actual equality. But show us the actual feminist thought leaders, academics, lobbyists and politicians who do. The majority in practice support sexist ideas and policies.

This is an over-generalisation of feminism.

Like, radical feminists often outright loathe liberal feminists. Intersectional feminists have long been critical of the strands of feminism focused on traditional, white, femininity. Queer feminists tear apart TERFs (although while TERFs claim the label of feminist, they tend to enforce rigid gender distinctions so many people, including myself, don't think they are feminists at all). The label "feminism" refers to a massive, multifaceted, many-decades-long field of study and discourse, full of differing perspectives and internal disagreements and discussions.

It's like what the right-wing does with terms like "woke" or "cancel culture". It lumps together a diverse set of beliefs, which are often in opposition to one another, under a single label and talks about them as if they're one single unified ideology or movement. It then picks the worst examples from that set of beliefs and uses it to tar everything under the label. Any counter examples can be dismissed as "individuals" who are not representative of the set as a whole.

Because unfortunately, in practice feminism too often is not egalitarian, but paints men collectively as oppressors. We oppose that unhealthy, sexist view of men.

Feminists regularly state that men as individuals are not well served by a patriarchal system.

Heck that's a big part of what feminist conversation around "toxic masculinity" is about: how a patriarchal system hurts everybody, including the individual men within it.

A lot of this is just the misunderstanding of "men" as a social group, and "men" as individuals. Critique of the social systems affecting a group cannot be simply applied to every individual within that group. That's not how critique of social systems is intended.

We are pro women's advocacy. We simply oppose misandry as well as misogyny.

In the welcome thread you favourited comments that consider feminism to have a "focus on female supremacy" and to be "genocidal". That same comment thread deliberately misinterprets feminist distinction between "group" and "individual" and considers that some sort of malicious deception.

To be very frank, you are not pro women's advocacy if that is the sort of generalisation that you encourage.

And just practically speaking, meaningful men's advocacy is only going to gain actual traction by working with feminists towards egalitarianism. So long as there is a focus on tearing down this falsely constructed boogeyman of "feminism", this will be little more than finger-pointing.

[-] a-man-from-earth@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

This is an over-generalisation of feminism.

Says you. But you didn't give any of the evidence asked for.

Feminists regularly state that men as individuals are not well served by a patriarchal system. [...] A lot of this is just the misunderstanding of "men" as a social group, and "men" as individuals. Critique of the social systems affecting a group cannot be simply applied to every individual within that group.

So men in general are bad, but some individuals are okay? Yeah, that's misandry. And that's why we cannot work with most feminist activists. They are bigots.

I've tried. I've honestly tried. When I was active on Reddit I tried to ally with a feminist or feminist-adjacent group that would not demonize men. I found a few individuals, but no community (/subreddit) that would actually embrace men as equals and oppose misandry.

And that's a reflection of what happens in politics. Feminist politicians, lobbyists, and activist groups often say they want equality, but their actions often show the opposite.

In the welcome thread you favourited comments that consider feminism to have a "focus on female supremacy"

It often does.

and to be "genocidal".

I don't agree with that. Just because I upvote a comment does not mean I agree with every phrase in it.

That same comment thread deliberately misinterprets feminist distinction between "group" and "individual"

How so? Doesn't feminism habitually demonize men as a group? And isn't demonizing people based on innate characteristics bigotry?

To be very frank, you are not pro women's advocacy if that is the sort of generalisation that you encourage.

Nonsense. Don't you understand the difference between a gender and an ideology? We are pro women, but oppose feminist ideology because of its misandry.

(Yes, there are schools of feminism that are not, but they are fringe.)

meaningful men's advocacy is only going to gain actual traction by working with feminists towards egalitarianism.

That sounds a bit like meaningful black advocacy is only going to gain actual traction by working with white supremacists towards egalitarianism.

There is no working with bigots.

(And yes, I'm aware there are many "passive" feminists who believe the propaganda that the movement is for equality. We welcome them to open their eyes and work with us.)

But if there are feminists who are pro men and pro equality, we would love to work with them. The problem is that in practice they are very hard to find.

[-] hotpotato138@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Incel, mens-rights activist, red-pill, black-pill, MGTOW, etc.

Most of these groups are not even misogynistic, besides black-pill. This post is unnecessary.

[-] a-man-from-earth@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I disagree, tho there is some nuance.

Incels are literally involuntary celibates, which is mostly a situation outside of their control. And it doesn't say anything about their views on women. That said, many of their forums do contain a lot of misogyny.

MRAs are mostly egalitarians, so it's not right to paint them collectively as misogynists.

TRP has certain ideas that are definitely misogynistic (such as AWALT), so it applies to this group.

Black pill is even worse and paints people as being determined by their genetics. This group is misogynistic by definition.

MGTOW in itself is not misogynistic, but it is very present in their online forums.

But indeed, this post would have been better if it focused on misogyny only, which is something we strongly oppose. Instead, the discussion derailed into a discussion on feminism.

[-] hotpotato138@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Yeah, I agree when you say it like that.

[-] hotpotato138@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Many of us, including the mod, are from r/leftwingmaleadvocates. It is a left wing MRA sub on reddit. The moderator here does a good job of making sure there is no misogyny. From the title of this post, it seems like you're implying that right-wing and anti-feminists are misogynistic. They are not. That is a false assumption you're making.

this post was submitted on 06 Aug 2023
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