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submitted 5 months ago by jeffw@lemmy.world to c/mensliberation@lemmy.ca
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[-] iarigby@lemmy.world 59 points 5 months ago

The title and some comments read like a revelation of people who, without looking into it, assumed feminism is for women or is anti men and are surprised that the movement actually wants to free everyone from the cycle of abuse.

[-] homura1650@lemm.ee 22 points 5 months ago

Every movement has a canon: the core principles behind it, a mythology about its history, and the textbook statement of its objectives.

Every movement also has a reality. Thousands or millions of people with their own ideosynchratic beliefs forming a complex social web. Within this web, a vibrant biosphere of memes [0] develop, spread and evolve on this social web. A movement is simply a name we give to a cluster of memes within this complex web. It is not any of the myths we tell about it; those are merely particular memes holding the cluster together.

The author of this article is a self described liberal feminist. She identifies a change that occurred within her bubble of feminism, where it became increasingly anti-man.

To be clear, that is not all the author says. Once she gets to the "Let's talk about how the patriarchy harms men and boys" section, she stops the meta conversation about the movement itself, and spends the rest of the article discussing mens issues directly.

However, to your comment, and the first part of the article, maybe we need to stop hiding behind the mythology we tell ourselves about feminist; and start recognizing that the "feminist" portions of the social web are still susceptible to anti-feminist memes.

[0] in its original sense; as a direct analog to the genes of biology.

[-] gamermanh@lemmy.dbzer0.com 20 points 5 months ago

assumed feminism is for women

It's because of the name and history of fighting for women. The movement should have gone for "egalitarianism" if they didn't want people to think of women first/exclusively.

It's why I've vehemently rejected the label of feminist even when I'm in feminist spaces with feminist friends: I'm here for everyone, there's a word for that, use it.

[-] jeffw@lemmy.world 24 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Except movements are often named after the oppressed group. Black Lives Matter, for example, doesn’t really want cops to only stop killing Black people. Black people are just disproportionately impacted.

Feminism is about raising up women’s status in society. That benefits men in the process though.

[-] gamermanh@lemmy.dbzer0.com 12 points 5 months ago

Except movements are often named after the oppressed group

That's nice, but I don't care. Doing things in a stupid way because "that's how we've always done it" is literally conservativism, which I'm not really for.

This thread originates from a comment surprised that people would look at a gendered term and assume actions done in that name are for said gender, this should be an obvious and predictable outcome, one that's been seen countless times, and has a simple and easy fix

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[-] Grandwolf319@sh.itjust.works 4 points 5 months ago

From an outsider, when I heard Black Lives Matter I thought the core goal was to value black lives more.

It’s less about what they “want” and more about what got them to protest… which is police behaviour towards black individuals, not everyone.

[-] Grandwolf319@sh.itjust.works 4 points 5 months ago

It's because of the name and history of fighting for women

Sounds like different movement then. There is nothing wrong with saying feminism did its job and now we need equalism.

You might be okay with that refocus, but maaannnyyy feminist aren’t.

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[-] KuroAnimates@feddit.de 14 points 5 months ago

The problem is that the "Kill all men" extremists are often the loudest which causes many to think that feminism in general is like that.

[-] TheGrandNagus@lemmy.world 20 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Yep. There's an unfortunate amount of people who cloak themselves under the guise of being a feminist, or claiming to care about women's issues, that could be more accurately referred to as misandrists.

It's my belief that there's a heavy overlap between these people and TERFs. With TERFs hating trans women in particular (notice how prominent TERFs like JKR never seem to talk about trans men? It's always "men in dresses infiltrating women's public toilets", which amusingly is also pushing the misogynistic idea that women are delicate fragile flowers that eternally need protection in every aspect of their lives).

But why? Why trans women in particular? Because not only do these TERFs view trans women as men, it's worse. They view trans women as men infiltrating their women-only "club", and that's something they don't tolerate.

It's unfortunate that terminally online minorities within movements that screech the loudest can have such a profound effect on the image of that movement. I think it's also a big part of why menslib movements struggle. People hear anything to do with it and their brain is clouded with preconceptions like angry incels, Andrew Tate, Jordan Peterson, etc. People who often purport themselves as activists of men's rights, when in reality they're usually either grifters or people yearning to be back in the 1950s.

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[-] iarigby@lemmy.world 3 points 5 months ago

In my experience, in general for all movements, loudest ones are always a bit more extreme and sometimes over the edge. It seems to be very strongly coupled with activism and in many cases drives the movement forward. So I have trouble accepting that reason as an excuse to so quickly dismiss something, especially a major movement.

However this is a very widespread issue and a reason my comment sounded a bit annoyed. But since it is an actual problem, articles and discussions like this are important and meaningful. Hope your community keeps growing and more men who struggle with of abuse from the patriarchy are able to find a safe space and a support system 🧡

[-] Grandwolf319@sh.itjust.works 2 points 5 months ago

And these both side feminist are on the same team as the “kill all men” ones. I’ve never seen any “real feminist” call these ones out.

[-] everyone_said@lemmy.world 11 points 5 months ago

It probably is. Not everyone has a robust education, misinformation is rampant, and there is always a new generation still learning the world. At a glance the word "feminism" appears as a movement just for women, so occasionally having headlines like this can help the misinformed or still learning to reevaulate their understanding.

Some people are surprised to learn it is not just about women.

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[-] Grandwolf319@sh.itjust.works 4 points 5 months ago

If feminism wasn’t women centric, it wouldn’t be called feminism, it would be called humanism or just equality.

How can a movement centred around women empowerment also empower men?

Some people read the above and see it possible, some, like me, see it as an oxymoron.

If it’s just a label, then just rebrand it…

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[-] YungOnions@sh.itjust.works 33 points 5 months ago

I write in the book that there's a weird combination of entitlement and inadequacy. You're entitled as your birthright as a male to women's bodies, you're entitled to power, you're entitled to glory, you're entitled to this heroic position. But you're also never going to meet it, so you're always going to feel shame and inadequacy. That combination makes is like a perfect storm for this resentment and emasculation.

This is interesting, Ive never thought of it that way. Tell men they have a right to a particular way of life, then make it next to impossible to achieve and finally feed off the resentment that perceived failure breeds.

[-] pmk 47 points 5 months ago

I have actually never felt entitled to these things. What I mostly feel is a responsibility. If something breaks I'm supposed to know how to fix it. Because of this I have become good at fixing things. If we are lost I'm supposed to find where we are, so I study maps before I go somewhere new. If a decision needs to be made, again, eyes turn to me, so I need to know a little about everything, and never look indecisive. If an unexpected expense comes up, I need to have money saved away for this purpose. The punishment for failing things like this is not disapproval from other men or feeling less masculine. The punishment is that I'm viewed as less by my girlfriend. This is how I think things go hand in hand. By helping women get empowered, we can share responsibilities. By women helping us feel valued for ourselves, worthy of love, desired as we are, we don't need to constantly fear being seen as less... then, I don't know. Maybe it would also lead to men feeling safer to be better human beings. The impossible dilemma now, for me, is that I'm still expected to be successful in the traditionally masculine things, while at the same time not being successful in the traditionally masculine things. No way to win.

[-] Grandwolf319@sh.itjust.works 6 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Wow the only sane comment I found in this thread so far.

The issue isn’t masculinity or how it can be toxic (to even suggest it is insulting imo).

The issue is:

Society does not value men!!!

That’s it, it’s not complicated at all. It’s not this weird problem with masculinity.

Society does not value men inherently like women (as in for just existing), it values the benefit they can provide.

This has been the case in all of human history. The difference now is that we no longer prepare most/all men to be able to provide the most value they can.

I always thought the solution was to value men inherently too. But that means saying a “you go bro” to incels and other “low value” men.

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[-] clark@midwest.social 12 points 5 months ago

I hope more people will talk about this. In the near future I’ll be writing a study of this, hoping it’ll reach at least somebody.

[-] Grandwolf319@sh.itjust.works 11 points 5 months ago

This was originally a reply to a comment but I thought it’s important enough to reply to the post too:

The issue isn’t masculinity or how it can be toxic (to even suggest it is insulting imo).

The issue is:

Society does not value men!!!

That’s it, it’s not complicated at all. It’s not this weird problem with masculinity.

Society does not value men inherently like women (as in for just existing), it values the benefit they can provide.

This has been the case in all of human history. The difference now is that we no longer prepare most/all men to be able to provide the most value they can.

I always thought the solution was to value men inherently too. But that means saying a “you go bro” to incels and other “low value” men.

[-] jeffw@lemmy.world 10 points 5 months ago

I’m not sure I agree with that. Society values women for all the wrong reasons (sexual objects, something to be controlled, etc). Men are valued for the wrong reasons too (physical prowess, etc).

[-] Grandwolf319@sh.itjust.works 10 points 5 months ago

Well I’m not claiming that women are or are not valued for the wrong reasons, just that they are not mainly valued for the benefits they provide but men are.

I’m saying men being valued for the benefit they provide without support is why there is a lot of mental health issues today. And that what people call “toxic masculinity” is basically caused by this expectation that society puts on men.

[-] Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world 10 points 5 months ago

The best way I've heard it put is that society values women for what they are, and values men for what they do. This is bad for everyone, of course, but it's how things have worked.

[-] Grandwolf319@sh.itjust.works 3 points 5 months ago

That’s a good way to put it.

It’s also what I meant by women being valued inherently.

It’s like conditional love vs unconditional love, they are VERY different.

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[-] arin@lemmy.world 8 points 5 months ago

Damn sucks to live with people who are upset your children born are the wrong gender.

[-] Gradually_Adjusting@lemmy.world 7 points 5 months ago

Is this sub about actual mens liberation and not just a reactionary movement?

[-] jeffw@lemmy.world 13 points 5 months ago

Men’s liberation is a far cry from MRAs, which is probably what you’re thinking of

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[-] Plastic_Ramses@lemmy.world 4 points 5 months ago

The patriarchy says it's weak to cry.

[-] Jarix@lemmy.world 3 points 5 months ago

Is this phrasing helpful or hurtful.

Its making it sound like patriarchy isnt a nebulous web of consequences.

If its giving people the idea that the patriarchy is something akin to a politcal party or movement then we should probably stop unintentionally giving people the wrong target to hit.

Its a thing of a billion selfish decisions and consequences going back thousands of years.

You cant just name it and scare it away, you have to understand how it still exists and set the path for self correction when decisions are made that affect and effect people broadly.

It cant be fixed by making gender based corrective rules or legislation, its by adopting good practices when making policies for people you wont ever see or hear from because they arent born yet. Hilariously to me, im kind of saying wont we just think about the children.

Like climate change and pollution its not the world today we can fix, its fixing today so the world can be fixed later

And thats why its so hard, everyone is arguing about what is first thing we should already be doing but arent

We need to just start making choices now whenever we find the opportunity, that we wont have to revisit tomorrow.

And that means finding common ground so we can start agreeing on somethings and making some decisions like that today.

And im not smart enough acheive that, and it looks like around the world we are all having a hard time finding choices that arent getting unmade by the next people who get to make decisions

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this post was submitted on 09 Jun 2024
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