466
summary execution rule (files.catbox.moe)
submitted 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) by nicknonya@lemmy.blahaj.zone to c/196@lemmy.blahaj.zone

i'm sure everyone can be normal about this post yes?

transcript:

a tumblr post:
autistichalsin posts:
Some of you are literally watching the right wing continuously try to expand the definition of "pedophilia" to include "existing around a child while queer," and then agreeing with them when they say pedophiles deserve to be summarily executed.

Not only does this place innocent people in danger of political executions, it also puts children in danger, as most children who are sexually abused have this done by someone close to them, and feelings that they would be responsible for the death of their abuser if they reported leads to lower rates of reporting. It also leads to higher rates of abusers murdering their victims when they're found out because the punishment will be the same anyway.

Part of being on the left is realizing that it's better to let 100 guilty men go free than to wrongly convict one. Another part of being on the left is realizing that one's life is never something others have the right to take away- even the most evil people alive. Yes, that includes mass murderers and rapists and pedophiles. Once you make one group acceptable to kill, you give others a vested interest in defining groups they have prejudice against into that group.

You have to start dealing with the fact that no crime makes one's life forfeit. Not even the worst most depraved and sadistic acts. The worst people alive have rights, and if you can't accept that they deserve them, at least try to accept that it is to your benefit that they retain rights no matter what they're accused of. And if you can't do even that, well... you just might be the kind of person who would cut off your nose to spite your face.

If you want to protect victims, if you want to protect minority groups, you have to realize that sex crimes, or any crimes at all, do not deserve the death penalty. Period.

brettdoesdiscourse replies:
When a certain kind of person "deserves" to die, bigots will make sure marginalized groups all are that kind of person.

little-gay-dowitcher replies:
My former neighbors were the “kill all pedos” type. They were also incredibly transphobic. And I was visibly queer. So guess who got stalked, harassed and threatened all throughout the brief period of time they babysat for their friend?

Stop enabling fascists. They’ve already proven they’re willing to attack minorities for no reason. Don’t give them a chance to excuse it.

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[-] irmoz@reddthat.com 63 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends. I have not much hope that Gollum can be cured before he dies, but there is a chance of it. And he is bound up with the fate of the Ring. My heart tells me that he has some part to play yet, for good or ill, before the end; and when that comes, the pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many - yours not least."

- Gandalf, The Fellowship of the Ring

[-] jaggedrobotpubes@lemmy.world 8 points 2 months ago

Smartest dude around, that gandalf.

[-] myrrh@ttrpg.network 6 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

"Hold you your hand, Frodo. It's quite cool."

- Gandalf, The Fellowship of the Ring

[-] Taalnazi@lemmy.world 2 points 2 months ago

While it's a great quote, I'll add an amendment:

"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death or to let live in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends."

Live and let live works, but only if the other also does so. When one does not allow you to live as you want, because what they do harms you, then that ends there.

[-] irmoz@reddthat.com 12 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

I'd say that lethal force is rational when used as proportional self-defence. Or, in the words of Malcolm Reynolds, "if someone ever tries to kill you, you try to kill 'em right back."

I think the Gandalf quote, however, is specifically referring to death as a punishment for "just" being a thoroughly contemptible, evil and heinous person.

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[-] TotallynotJessica@lemmy.world 52 points 2 months ago

The only times when it's ok to take a life is when there are NO other options.

Ruthless capitalists can cause more death and suffering than any serial killer or mass shooter. In many ways, they're a group so driven by calculating costs and benefits that the threat of death would be more effective as a deterrent than for anyone else.

However, even these people don't deserve to die if you can simply prevent them from holding that power instead. All that matters is that they can't do more harm. Unless they insist on defending their wealth like scarface, just prevent them from being that powerful ever again.

[-] lemonmelon@lemmy.world 7 points 2 months ago

TotallynotJessica is TotallynotWrong. The value of a person's life is immeasurable. If we first accept that statement as bedrock fact, then proceed logically from that starting point, better ways of relating to those around us naturally emerge.

[-] TotallynotJessica@lemmy.world 6 points 2 months ago

It's also important to prevent needing to kill people in the first place. If you can lessen the desire for crime by ensuring everyone has enough, police will become less necessary. If you can convince someone to stop doing something bad, you shouldn't need to kill them.

[-] Didros@beehaw.org 35 points 2 months ago

I had an argument with someone online recently where I advocated for removal of national boarders and they came back with, "what about bad people" to which I responded, who are the bad people? And if I consider you a bad person would you be alright being kicked out of your country and not allowed to return. We spoke for about 3 hours and my whole argument was that if he considered rapists (they said rapists and murderers were bad people) fit to be prevented from entering his country would they willingly leave if their wife accused them of rape.

They just couldn't allow themselves to follow through with the thought, it simply stopped with, "I'm a good person" and even when asked if they received consent before sexual acts they said,"no, but I'm not a rapist, I'm a good person"

They love laws like this, because in their minds, they could 100% NEVER be applied to them.

[-] AVincentInSpace@pawb.social 10 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

conservatism consists of exactly one proposition etc. etc.

[-] Kolanaki@yiffit.net 35 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

I feel like pedophilia (along with zoophilia and possibly even coprophilia) is a mental disorder and should be studied so it can be properly treated.

[-] AVincentInSpace@pawb.social 28 points 2 months ago

I wish all pedophiles a very therapy

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[-] Mnemnosyne@sh.itjust.works 26 points 2 months ago

The "pedophile" thing has always been a front for conservatives to wedge in, from what I've seen. They saw a real problem and then, as they always do, fearmongered and inflated it way out of proportion to reality, then started to expand the definition.

I'm old enough to remember when pedophile actually meant people trying to engage in sex with children. As in, actual children. The definition began expanding to older and older people, and expanding into fiction, fictional characters, and more.

They also started getting weird about any men being near children. I am also old enough to remember when fathers, uncles, and generally men, could be in public with kids without a woman around and without being looked at with suspicion. These days we hear countless stories of men stalked, harassed, and threatened when they're out with kids they have every right to be with.

And that's just the stuff that affects everyone, not just minorities and marginalized people. How the left ever got on board with this pedophile panic I don't understand, considering conservatives have been equating LGBT with molestation and pedophilia as long as I can recall. Anyone who didn't see this coming from the beginning is a blind fool.

I think it was the Catholic Church thing. A real case of pedophilia committed by figures generally considered conservative and right wing, which the left rightfully jumped on attacking...but then kept going when conservatives egged them on further instead of stopping. People got tricked into going nuts on it cause the right was all 'well if that's bad then you must condemn this...and this...and this...and this...' with each step being something less and less real, less egregious, less of a true problem. But they're good at stoking hate, and once the hate was kindled in people it took less and less to spread it just slightly further each time, until now we have people ostensibly on the left calling for censorship of completely fictional works and punishment of people who produce or consume them, despite no actual harm to any actual people being involved.

And that's exactly the level of unthinking hate they want, for people to not stop and consider whether any actual harm is being caused, just condemn and punish and don't argue or dispute the severity of what you're calling for. Just hate, just view them as monsters, deserving of death. Even as the definition keeps expanding.

After all, what group is othered and made the enemy doesn't matter that much to them, only that some group is hated to the point of an unexamined desire for violence and death. They can work with that, after all.

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[-] ShareMySims@sh.itjust.works 21 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Once you make one group acceptable to kill, you give others a vested interest in defining groups they have prejudice against into that group.

So... they're going to make us all billionaires?

I agree with a lot of points the post is making, but there is also one group in particular, that isn't only responsible for turning society against each other, literally dragging us back in to fascism, but is waaaaay above the law and would always remain that way until the system that put that law in place and enforces it is abolished, which is a complete impossibility without using force.

Do I think all billionaires should die? Not necessarily, but I do think they should cease to exist as billionaires.

Do I think any billionaire would, at first, just give up their money and power and just agree to be like the rest of us? Not a fucking chance.

So yeah, while prison isn't a real threat to them, and they have all the power, and adamant refusal to give it up, I see them as a group it is acceptable to kill, because they see us all as acceptable to kill (and they actively are).

You simply can't compare a random citizen, however harmful to the people around them, to the handful of people who literally control the entire world economy, and all of the abuse and destruction it brings with it, killing millions annually (via artificial scarcity and other methods of deliberately depriving people access to food, water, shelter, and medicine for preventable disease, not to mention other exploitation like slavery or starvation wages, child labour, as well as the patriarchy, queerphobia, and so on which encourage gendered violence and the kind of murder OP is talking about).

Part of being on the left is considering systemic power structures, and understanding that they can not be addressed in the same way an individual offender is.

And for the record: I don't believe in the death penalty and I don't think paedophiles, rapists, and murderers should be executed, because as opposed to billionaires, they can be removed from society in different ways, because they don't own it.

[-] OwenEverbinde@lemmy.myserv.one 7 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

How did that go for the objectively non-bourgeoisie who got caught up in Stalin's / Lenin's / Mao's anti-bourgeois campaigns?

Even Mao acknowledged innocent people got executed during his "counter-revolutionary" and land reform campaigns. And the number of prisoners Kruschev released from the Gulags would have been impossible if most of them were actually as harmful to Russia as they were accused of being.

Once the guillotines come out, everyone is calling everyone else bourgeois.

[-] ShareMySims@sh.itjust.works 2 points 2 months ago

I gave a very narrow group, feel free to create your slippery slope strawman elsewhere.

[-] OwenEverbinde@lemmy.myserv.one 14 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

You think you gave a narrow group. But my point is that "narrow groups" get very broad very quickly when heads start rolling.

[-] AVincentInSpace@pawb.social 8 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

we have people right now accusing anyone with a middle class income of being who they're talking about when they say eat the rich. who genuinely believe that the fact that poverty exists means that anyone who isn't in it is the borgeoise. you're an idiot if you think those people won't come out of the woodwork when people actually start killing billionaires.

[-] lemonmelon@lemmy.world 3 points 2 months ago

You guys have an opportunity for good, honest discussion if you can both avoid behaviors like seeking refuge by invoking logical fallacies as if they're eldritch wards of protection and viewing conversations that take place between parties who disagree as contests that must be won.

[-] vinceman@lemmy.blahaj.zone 4 points 2 months ago

I find the replies to you funny because we know exactly who you're talking about, there's 3,194 of them worldwide.

[-] ShareMySims@sh.itjust.works 4 points 2 months ago

Exactly.

People not being able to tell the difference between tankie rhetoric ("put all of the bourgeoisie up against the wall and everyone I disagree with in the gulag!!12") or even plain old anti-communist propaganda, and actual leftist views is for them to figure out with themselves. I said what I said, and I mean it as I said it (including saying that I don't even think it's necessary to kill all billionaires, never mind anyone bellow them, which they conveniently ignore).

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[-] orca@orcas.enjoying.yachts 14 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

I’m okay with fascists and other repeat offender threats to the planet being thrown in a prison forever. They don’t have to die and no one has the right to determine whose life is forfeit and whose isn’t. But if they repeatedly endanger the lives of others, including animals, they need to be away from society.

Texas is set to execute yet another person and Missouri executed an innocent man despite the DA’s objection and new evidence.

The death penalty is acceptable for people like Netanyahu.

[-] AVincentInSpace@pawb.social 10 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

I’m okay with fascists and other repeat offender threats to the planet being thrown in a prison forever. They don’t have to die and no one has the right to determine whose life is forfeit and whose isn’t. But if they repeatedly endanger the lives of others, including animals, they need to be away from society.

Finally, a leftist who actually understands that wanting to build a society free from state-sponsored violence means that state-sponsored execution is bad no matter what and it's not just a question of how bad the crime wa–

The death penalty is acceptable for people like Netanyahu.

–oh.

[-] orca@orcas.enjoying.yachts 2 points 2 months ago

I think we can make an exception for people that have carried out, or are actively carrying out, a genocide. Same would go for Hitler if he wasn’t a coward that did it himself.

[-] AVincentInSpace@pawb.social 15 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

What part of "no one has the right to decide whose life is forfeit and whose isn't" didn't you internalize when you said it the first time?

Let him spend the rest of his life in supermax, sure. Make sure he never sees the sun again. Make sure the only people he sees for the rest of his life are people who know what he did. But as for executing him, you are literally the person in the post. What counts as carrying out a genocide? Are soldiers doing that if they're told by their commanding officers they'll be executed themselves if they don't? How about workers who take a bribe to divert aid trucks to somewhere, unbeknownst to the worker, they'll get raided? Heck, what counts as a genocide? Forcibly relocating native Canadians in order to build a natural gas pipeline across their ancestral home is unequivocally bad, but is it genocide? Thought Slime seems to think so. Should we guillotine Justin Trudeau?

[-] orca@orcas.enjoying.yachts 3 points 2 months ago

I’d take rotting in prison forever. That’s acceptable.

[-] AVincentInSpace@pawb.social 6 points 2 months ago

Then why'd you say you wanted to kill him? Either you believe in the death penalty or you don't.

[-] orca@orcas.enjoying.yachts 4 points 2 months ago

I don’t believe in the death penalty but I also won’t cry over the death of a fascist carrying out genocide. If he dies a lonely death in a cell, that’s still the same outcome, even if power is a vacuum. It was also a late edit in jest, but I also hope he bites it asap.

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[-] beliquititious@lemmy.blahaj.zone 7 points 2 months ago

This is probably one of the more tragic results of the mess we're in right now and there is no good solution. Not killing anyone would be ideal, but not enough people feel that way or we wouldn't be killing each other as much as we do.

You can't change a bigots heart unless they want to change. You could kill them, but what difference would there be between you and a bigot at that point? These kinds of problems take generations to sort out, which is unfortunate for all the dead southern queer people who will be murdered legally in the years to come.

[-] lightnsfw@reddthat.com 5 points 2 months ago

So what should we do with them?

[-] bizarroland@fedia.io 26 points 2 months ago

Provide options for psychological therapy for the ones who have not offended.

Incarcerate the ones who have offended and provide options for psychological therapy for them until they are safe to go back out into public.

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[-] jaggedrobotpubes@lemmy.world 8 points 2 months ago

Probably humane quarantine and rehabilitation, whether they are ever released or not. "Make the problem happen less" is better than "fuck his shit up for crossing a line".

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[-] HowManyNimons@lemmy.world 2 points 2 months ago

Help them get better.

[-] shani66@ani.social 5 points 2 months ago

Disagree, lots of stuff can void your right to life. The issue with killing people, even those who deserve it, is that Innocents can be caught up in that.

[-] AVincentInSpace@pawb.social 10 points 2 months ago

this comment has a lot of "blatant, sweeping misandry is bad, but only because it inadvertently harms transmasc people" energy

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this post was submitted on 17 Oct 2024
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