Sure is great that they patented the Nemesis system just to do nothing with it for the better part of a decade then shut down the studio that invented it. Brilliant use of talent and the US patent system there.
this post was submitted on 25 Feb 2025
225 points (97.1% liked)
Games
38929 readers
1004 users here now
Welcome to the largest gaming community on Lemmy! Discussion for all kinds of games. Video games, tabletop games, card games etc.
Rules
1. Submissions have to be related to games
Video games, tabletop, or otherwise. Posts not related to games will be deleted.
This community is focused on games, of all kinds. Any news item or discussion should be related to gaming in some way.
2. No bigotry or harassment, be civil
No bigotry, hardline stance. Try not to get too heated when entering into a discussion or debate.
We are here to talk and discuss about one of our passions, not fight or be exposed to hate. Posts or responses that are hateful will be deleted to keep the atmosphere good. If repeatedly violated, not only will the comment be deleted but a ban will be handed out as well. We judge each case individually.
3. No excessive self-promotion
Try to keep it to 10% self-promotion / 90% other stuff in your post history.
This is to prevent people from posting for the sole purpose of promoting their own website or social media account.
4. Stay on-topic; no memes, funny videos, giveaways, reposts, or low-effort posts
This community is mostly for discussion and news. Remember to search for the thing you're submitting before posting to see if it's already been posted.
We want to keep the quality of posts high. Therefore, memes, funny videos, low-effort posts and reposts are not allowed. We prohibit giveaways because we cannot be sure that the person holding the giveaway will actually do what they promise.
5. Mark Spoilers and NSFW
Make sure to mark your stuff or it may be removed.
No one wants to be spoiled. Therefore, always mark spoilers. Similarly mark NSFW, in case anyone is browsing in a public space or at work.
6. No linking to piracy
Don't share it here, there are other places to find it. Discussion of piracy is fine.
We don't want us moderators or the admins of lemmy.world to get in trouble for linking to piracy. Therefore, any link to piracy will be removed. Discussion of it is of course allowed.
Authorized Regular Threads
Related communities
PM a mod to add your own
Video games
Generic
- Gaming: Our sister community, focused on PC and console gaming. Meme are allowed.
- Photo Mode: For all your screenshots needs, to share your love for games graphics.
- Video Game Music: A community to share your love for video games music
Help and suggestions
By platform
By type
- Automation games
- Incremental Games
- Life simulation
- City Builders
- Cosy Games
- CRPG
- Otome games
- Shmups
- Visual Novels
By games
- Baldur's Gate 3
- Cites Skylines
- Cassette Beasts
- Fallout
- FFXIV
- Minecraft
- No Man's Sky
- Palia
- Pokemon
- Skyrim
- Stardew Valley
- Subnautica 2
- Workers & Resources: Soviet Republic
Language specific
founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
I know I'm in the minority here, but I really didn't like the nemesis system at all. Just like roguelikes, the infinite repeatability of it was a turn off for me and made it feel pointless. I'd much rather play a hand-crafted, limited, curated experience that actually feels meaningful. These generative systems just feel lifeless and pointless to me.
Also, fuck warner bros.
I have the exact opposite opinion of procedurally generated continuity (because I play for the gameplay and that stuff keeps the game going well after the story ends), but share the same opinion of Warner Bros.
The Problem is... I Love The fucking Gameplay, this together with the Nemesis System was super addictive to me.
I didn't like it because it seemed pointless if you don't really care about getting vengeance on specific thing. So the name of a mob that kills you fills in an empty space? Which is the same thing that happens any time you hit a story beat anyways? What's the point? It's all just randomly generated grunts that try and kill you.
It brought very little in the way of innovative gameplay and roleplaying, yet people seem to treat it as the greatest revolution of game design in the last several decades.
I love proc gen stuff for how it can make each playthrough feel different or even just make yours feel different from your friend's. I appreciated that the enemy would remember how you defeated them in particular, because it called out those unique events. I also don't know that there are a ton of settings where this mechanic makes sense outside of the two it appeared in already, so I won't miss it too badly.
But the story beat is static, it always gives you the same enemy in the same situation. The nemesis system turns that story beat dynamic. Every time you hit that story beat you get a different enemy in a different situation. It doesn't give everyone the same story, it gives everyone their story. It's innovation is how the system sets up stories and ties them into the gameplay. The system is designed to draw you into an encounter with a nemesis, there are multiple outcomes to that encounter. Those encounters become callbacks in the next encounter and so on and on until you've create a storyarc against that enemy.
For example I remember having a nemesis I couldn't kill with a sneak attack (which was very much my preferred way of getting rid of nemesis I wanted to get rid of). So I had to fight him head on and I set him on fire. He managed to escape while I was being overrun by grunts. One of the grunts slayed me and became a new nemesis. Meanwhile the one that got away gained a new weaknesses to fire. One storyline branched into two storylines. Not only did my individual story born from the nemesis system branch out, the gameplay encounters with those nemesis also changed from the previous encounter. The next time I fought my old nemesis I had a new trick up my sleeve, I could use fire against them. As for the new nemesis, well get to him.
That's the innovation of the nemesis system. It's a story generator that gives you your story and each encounter alters the gameplay for the next encounter. But that's only the foundation of the nemesis system. The Nemesis hierarchy and relations between them is an extra layer of storytelling. For example that grunt who killed me turned out to become a really annoying nemesis, I really struggled killing him and every encounter only made him stronger. So I devised a different strategy. I ended up turning other orks that surrounded him in the hierarchy and started using them to do my dirty work. In the end I wasn't the one to slay my new nemesis, it was a different ork (under my control) who challenged him and killed him.
And final note on what really makes all of it work is the presentation. The orks aren't just a randomized collection of traits, they're voiced and somewhat visually unique and whatever randomized outcome they get to at the end of the encounter gets properly presented in the next encounter. The presentation is the glue that ties all those encounters together into one story. You're presented with an actual nemesis and not just some generic mute and they "remember" the things you did to them before. They feel like a nemesis and not just some randomly generated grunt.
If you tried it and didn't see the appeal I'm guessing the game was too easy. I wasn't impressed by the nemesis system until the orks had a chance to escape or I was forced to retreat or I got killed. The system really opens up and gets interesting when the game gets so challenging that you're no longer certain what will happen in any encounter.
load more comments
(1 replies)
Oh I guess it's that time of the month where WB butchers active projects to reduce expenses. I saw this coming, they literally cancelled a finished movie (Batgirl) just to lower the taxes they have to pay! How anyone would want to pitch a project to Warner Bros is beyond me.
*three movies
Batgirl, Coyote vs ACME and a third one I can't recall the name of.
Scoob! Holiday Haunt, was the third one.
I hope one day they suffer a massive data breach and these movies leak in full, even if they're unfinished. Fuck 'em.
Yeah, I'll see if I can help make that happen. Decent enough movies to come out.
With how long Wonder Woman was still going to have to cook, it was never going to make its money back. That's more of a mistake that was made 7-8 years ago though.
29 years later, after working with Monolith on one of the worst projects in history... I can finally piss on their grave. Fuck you Matt, fuck Monolith. Yeah this is fucking personal.
Christ, the game industry is absolutely cooked.
The industry makes 300 billion dollars and it "can't afford to make video games."
Games are doing fine overall. But I wouldn't want to be working for a mega corp these days. Well, I already didn't want that actually.
Games are doing fine for now, but how much longer will devs and artists continue being treated like disposable tissue before we see the talent pool implode? It doesn't seem to matter what game is built, how well it performs, if it's single player or live service - the layoffs and closures come for everyone.
There is more to gaming than the AAA studios. There have never, ever been more people making video games. They don't all work for mega corps.
There are plenty of countries with better worker rights in which to set up shop as well.
Ubisoft is french and... ugh no
All the best games of the last 10 years have been built and published by teams smaller than 20 people.
There were some AAA standouts, like Baulder Gate 3 and Hogworts Legacy, that did very well. It is possible if the company focuses on producing a fun user experience.
Going on a little tangent here, but it made me think: how could someone start studying now to become, say, a game dev when in some years everything could go belly up because of these mega corps shitty moves? How could they in good faith spend time and money to develop skills for such an uncertain future?
Indie. That's how.
Success in indie development tends to be very uncertain though. Unless you end up at an established indie studio with a good track record but it's not like indie studios hire in droves.
Replace mega corp with ‘a publicly traded entity’ and you’re spot-on the money.
There are a very few studios that aren’t beholden to the whims of vulture capitalist investors, and they’re the only ones still putting out absolute bangers (Larian), upholding their promises (Hello Games) or keeping the entire gaming industry from consuming itself in a blaze of pure shitfuckery (Valve).
The games that survived are doing fine. There's a lot of reason to believe that what we're seeing can at least be partially attributed to just how many games are coming out these days, even good ones. I'm already falling behind on games I want to get to just out of the ones released in 2025.
Big money first bloated up the industry and is now scooping it out from the inside until it collapses. Well, AAA and AA gaming anyways. I‘ve noticed I‘ve been playing smaller indie games for the most part in the last decade and I know why. It‘s not so much a deliberate choice but simply where talent and care has been moving towards.
For a second there, i've panicked, thinking this is about Monolith Soft. Either way, really sucks for the workers, but WB themselves can eat shit
Same, I was wondering how WB would shut down a Nintendo-owned developer..
I really hope these teams are able to stay together. Monolith was absolutely getting wasted by Warner Bros. Games, they're way too good a studio to get stuck making brand tie-ins. Just more dogshit mismanagement from Zaslav though, Warner Bros keeps seeing flops but won't address the problem.
I'll point out an additional post from Schreier:
I see a lot of people responding to this news with complaints about David Zaslav, but it was president David Haddad who ran Warner Bros. Games for the last decade and who was responsible for overseeing all of the studios and their output.
By the time David Zaslav took over WB Discovery in April 2022, Monolith had already gone almost five years without shipping a game and lost almost its entire leadership team under Haddad's management
That's fair, I only knew Zaslav had been pushing hard for live-service games and will likely be the death of Rocksteady. Fuck Haddad too then. Why does Warner Bros employ so many execs with Batman-villain ass last names?
Definitely not Batman villains. If they were Batman villains, they'd be puns like Egsek Yutiv or something to go along with the Harleen Quinzels and Edward Nigmas of its world.
I was thinking more like a Victor Zsasz or an Aaron Helzinger. Not top tier Batmen villains, more like the C-listers.
If Jason Hall is still out there and sitting on cash, I'd love to see him get some of the team back together and reboot Blood. But my understanding is WB owns the rights and Atari couldn't afford to get the rights (they still hold the publish rights from the Infogrames days, hence why we got a re-release).
Even if they can't get the rights, it's not like there's anything stopping them from making a new original "boomer shooter." I don't need it to be called Blood 2, I just want them to make something high-octane and kickass again.
There was a Blood 2 and it sucked, you have a good point
load more comments
(1 replies)
It doesn’t seem that big, right?
If WW was stuck in development hell, cutting Monolith makes sense I guess. PFG only did Multiversus, WB SF seemed to only work on/support mobile games, with no recent credits.
Seems like if you're publicly traded you can't also be profitable in the videogame industry.
I can finally give up on a sequel to Shogo Mobile Armor Division. What a sad day but Monolith also hadn't released a game in 8 years. If Rocksteady hadn't made the Arkham asylum series they would be gone too.
view more: next ›