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WIP: Introductory post about NATO's war in Ukraine (lemmygrad.ml)
submitted 3 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) by GrainEater@lemmygrad.ml to c/genzhou@lemmygrad.ml
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What is this?

This is a collection of sources related to the war in Ukraine, mainly focusing on the context leading up to Russia's escalation in 2022. It consists primarily of Western media articles, as well as articles using Western media to point out contradictions. This is far from being finished and will be updated sporadically.

This thread is being written for those who are already somewhat aware of, and opposed to, US imperialism.

Context for the 2022 escalation

In 2014, the US supported a fascist coup in Ukraine.

Ukraine has a long history of Nazism.

NATO has been expanding toward Russia, despite assurances when East and West Germany were reunited.

NATO has been refusing to abide by agreements, and despite being elected on a peace platform, the Zelensky government has consistently escalated tensions.

Additional sources:

Sources contributed by:

  • /u/cfgaussian@lemmygrad.ml
  • /u/davel@lemmygrad.ml
  • /u/itspostingtime@lemmygrad.ml
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[–] yogthos@lemmygrad.ml 32 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (3 children)

some useful sources I've collected

NATO expansion

In May 1990 speech Secretary General Manfred Wörner said “The very fact that we are ready not to deploy NATO troops beyond the territory of the Federal Republic gives the Soviet Union firm security guarantees.”

This shows 2 things:

  1. As we already knew NATO had told the Soviet Union although that it would not move further East than East Germany
  2. They understood full well that NATO moving East was seen as threatening by USSR given the promise not to do so was a “security guarantee” for them.

https://www.nato.int/docu/speech/1990/s900517a_e.htm

fascism

maidan coup

war crimes

negotiations

misc sources

[–] cfgaussian@lemmygrad.ml 14 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Wow! Amazing work! Thank you for taking the time to put all of this together!

[–] TankieReplyBot@lemmygrad.ml 3 points 3 months ago

I found YouTube links in your comment. Here are links to the same videos on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:

Link 1:

Link 2:

Link 3:

Link 4:

Link 5:

[–] TankieReplyBot@lemmygrad.ml 3 points 3 months ago

I found an Odysee link in your comment. Here are links to the same location on an alternative frontend that protects your privacy:

[–] honeyontoast@lemmygrad.ml 27 points 3 months ago (2 children)

I know it's not exactly what you're asking for, but I do want to say - to anyone new, like I am, I understand it's a little disconcerting stepping out of the bubble you've been in, I am in that process myself.

For my entire life, I've been educated and informed inside a NATO nation. You have to acknowledge that in such a scenario, you are victim to propaganda whether you know it or not.

Stepping out of that bubble naturally means learning about a lot of things you probably wish weren't true. The truth is often hard to swallow after all.

This doesn't mean Russia gets a free pass. Acknowledging the flaws of NATO doesn't mean Russia has never committed a crime. I still don't like the Russian government, that's not a controversial statement. I think nearly everyone here would say the same thing.

What matters most of all in this conflict is the wellbeing and safety of the people suffering in Donbas and other parts of Ukraine. They deserve better than this.

If you read all the links everyone has shared, and come out of it feeling confused and angry, then you're probably on the right path. Reality is a mess.

[–] rainpizza@lemmygrad.ml 12 points 3 months ago

Welcome to this journey!

I congratulate you and the new ones that choose to read all of this information shared throughout this thread!

[–] blobii@lemmygrad.ml -5 points 3 months ago (2 children)

I agree. I think this war is a fight of imperialist versus imperialist.

After all, Russia gave up any notion of being a liberator when they betrayed socialism for bourgeois democracy in 1991. It is now an imperator like that of America — attempting to spread its influence as a state rather than spreading revolutionary influence.

[–] rainpizza@lemmygrad.ml 11 points 3 months ago

Is Russia imperialist?

We have discussed this before so, if you want a fresh discussion of this topic, you could also open a new post in c/asklemmygrad.

[–] honeyontoast@lemmygrad.ml 0 points 3 months ago (3 children)

One thing that I learned here is that imperialism has a much stricter definition than what we're used to in general parlance among liberal places you might have discussed before. This too threw me, I think sometimes people get bogged down on correcting the definition and not the meaning behind it though.

From the outside it looks like russian apologia, but I think it's about keeping the meaning of the words and not diluting them until they're meaningless.

People will say that Russia is not imperialist, because by the definition used here, it's not. And to a layman that sounds like they're saying Russia didn't invade Ukraine. Of course, they did. It's just by the definition used, the invasion wasn't imperialism.

I think Putin, maybe Russia in general, genuinely considers that land as belonging to Russia. I disagree personally. They invaded and made excuses for it but ultimately, he thinks it belongs to Russia. It's aggression, it's invasion, but not necessarily imperialism because it's not about robbing the place blind but about claiming a land and people that he thinks belongs to Russia.

Meanwhile the US wants to make sure Ukraine doesn't side with Russia, because the US wants to plunder the natural resources of Ukraine for their own profit. That's imperialism.

Unfortunately quite often when you say Russia is imperialist the response will be "no they're not" but doesn't explain why they're still bad even if it's not imperialism. They're still a bourgeois capitalist state and despite what they might say their interests are not in the working class' interests.

Also for what it's worth, if the US, and NATO, and all it's influence disappeared overnight, being a bourgeois capitalist state Russia would almost certainly try to fill that imperialist void. It just hasn't got the money or power to do so with NATO active. I guess you could say the war is imperialist Vs wishes they were imperialist.

[–] cfgaussian@lemmygrad.ml 17 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

I think Putin, maybe Russia in general, genuinely considers that land as belonging to Russia. I disagree personally. They invaded and made excuses for it but ultimately, he thinks it belongs to Russia. It's aggression, it's invasion, but not necessarily imperialism because it's not about robbing the place blind but about claiming a land and people that he thinks belongs to Russia.

No. You continue to operate on the basis of the false Western narratives surrounding this conflict. There are enough sources on this post by now which clearly show that land seizure is not what this conflict is about and not Russia's primary motivation. This conflict is about the existential security threat perceived by Russia as emanating from NATO presence in Ukraine, as well as about the rights of the ethnic Russian population of the Donbass and southern Ukraine.

For eight years from 2014 to 2022 Russia made every effort to try and restore the Donbass to Ukraine by resolving the conflict via the Minsk agreements. If Ukraine had abided by those agreements rather than attempting to take the Donbass by force, and if the West had taken Russia's security concerns - which Russia repeated over and over for decades - seriously, Russia would not have had to recognize and subsequently annex the Donbass republics.

Ukraine then had another chance to avoid further loss of territory in 2022 with the Istanbul negotiations. Russia was prepared to end the conflict and restore everything but the Donbass republics to Ukraine in exchange for serious commitments on neutrality, denazification and demilitarization. The West instead promised Ukraine a blank check if they pulled out of the negotiations, which they did. This resulted in further permanent loss of territory for Ukraine.

At no point in the history of this conflict has Russia behaved as if their motivation was to take land from Ukraine. This extends even to how they militarily handle the SMO, prioritizing attrition of Ukraine's forces over taking territory, because it's not the territory that they want. Their primary goals remain Ukraine's neutrality, denazification and demilitarization. But the other response is right, this is not the post for this discussion. Please study the sources provided on this post and if you still wish to have this debate open up a separate post for it.

[–] rainpizza@lemmygrad.ml 9 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

As a friendly reminder:

The goal of this post is to collect a list of useful sources regarding NATO in general, as well as the context of the war in Ukraine, to be used to educate new leftists or anyone else who needs it.

If you are looking for a discussion that focuses on the topic of "Is Russia imperialist", I recommend you to open a new post in c/asklemmygrad. That topic warrants a discussion and I am pretty sure comrades will join in to explain their point of view. However, in this post, we risk to derail it from its intended purpose.

[–] Onewhoexists@lemmygrad.ml 5 points 3 months ago

You’re mostly right, although I would like to add that resistance to NATO is in the working class’ interest, even if Russia isn’t acting on behalf of the working class (which it isn’t).

[–] ExotiqueMatter@lemmygrad.ml 16 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

Here's some stuff I have in my personal notes:

State/timeline of the war

Ukraine’s Russian incursion has failed to turn the military tide

Nazis in Ukraine

Ukraine's Nazi problem is real, even if Putin's 'denazification' claim isn't

Nazi Symbols on Ukraine’s Front Lines Highlight Thorny Issues of History

Commentary: Ukraine’s neo-Nazi problem

Torchlight parade in Kyiv honors Nazi-linked nationalist

1000 in Torchlight March in Kiev Honoring Nazi Collaborator

Torchlight parade in Kyiv honours Nazi-linked nationalist

Trudeau and Zelensky give Ukrainian Nazi war veteran standing ovation in Canadian parliament

Canada House speaker apologizes for recognition of veteran who fought for Nazis

Ukraine's far-right children's camp: 'I want to bring up a warrior'

Canadian Parliament gives WWII Nazi standing ovation | Al Jazeera Newsfeed

Donbas separatists resistance

BBC witnesses "surrender" in Sloviansk - BBC News

Why do some Ukrainians want to be part of Russia? BBC News

[–] TankieReplyBot@lemmygrad.ml 2 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

I found YouTube links in your comment. Here are links to the same videos on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:

Link 1:

Link 2:

Link 3:

Link 4:

Link 5:

[–] itspostingtime@lemmygrad.ml 15 points 3 months ago

Donbass (2016) - War documentary by Anne-Laure Bonnel. (TankieTube, Internet Archive) - A French director goes to Donbas region, showing the state of things as it is being bombed, interviewing people in bomb shelters, hospitals, on the street, etc. CW: Graphic scenes, deaths/injuries shown.

Articles/videos by Geopolitical Economy Report. He has several articles/videos worth checking out, but I'll just list two:

  1. "West prepares to plunder post-war Ukraine with neoliberal shock therapy: privatization, deregulation, slashing worker protections" - "... starting in 2017, representatives of Western governments and corporations quietly held annual conferences in which they discussed ways to profit from the civil war they were fueling in Ukraine. In these meetings, Western political and business leaders outlined a series of aggressive right-wing reforms they hoped to impose on Ukraine, including widespread privatization of state-owned industries and deregulation of the economy."

  2. "CBS censors its own report on Ukraine weapons corruption" - "Under Ukrainian government pressure, CBS News censored its own documentary “Arming Ukraine,” which showed that just around 30% of the weapons Western governments have sent actually go to the frontlines, with widespread corruption and black markets."

"The Nulands: A family business of perpetual war" - Article about the role of Victoria Nuland and husband Robert Kagan within the military-industrial complex as well as going into detail on Nuland's career and involvement in Ukraine. "Neoconservative pundit Robert Kagan and his wife, Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland, run a remarkable family business: she has sparked a hot war in Ukraine and helped launch Cold War II with Russia – and he steps in to demand that Congress jack up military spending so America can meet these new security threats."

On Reinhard Gehlen, the CIA, and NATO: "The CIA’s Worst-Kept Secret: Newly Declassified Files Confirm United States Collaboration with Nazis" - "The CIA reports show that U.S. officials knew they were subsidizing numerous Third Reich veterans who had committed horrible crimes against humanity, but these atrocities were overlooked as the anti-Communist crusade acquired its own momentum. ... Bolted lock, stock, and barrel into the CIA, Gehlen’s Nazi-infested spy apparatus functioned as America’s secret eyes and ears in central Europe. The Org would go on to play a major role within NATO, supplying two-thirds of raw intelligence on the Warsaw Pact countries. Under CIA auspices, and later as head of the West German secret service until he retired in 1968, Gehlen exerted considerable influence on U.S. policy toward the Soviet bloc. "

"U.S. Built NATO By Putting Nazi War Criminals in Charge" - Not a bourgeois source as this is on the page of a communist party, but it's basically just a list of several Nazis who got positions in NATO.

[–] VladimirLimeMint@lemmygrad.ml 13 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

Ukraine: The Avoidable War

How the West Brought War to Ukraine

Europe's Existential Dilemma: To Be Or Not To Be An American Vassal

The Ukraine War & The Eurasian World Order

NATO Expansion: What Gorbachev Heard

[–] TankieReplyBot@lemmygrad.ml 4 points 3 months ago

I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:

[–] davel@lemmygrad.ml 12 points 3 months ago (1 children)

I needn’t repost my mostly-liberal western sources for the hundredth time: https://lemmygrad.ml/comment/7035800

[–] NotMushroomForDebate@lemmygrad.ml 3 points 3 months ago (1 children)

I always look forward to the "Previously:" interjections.

From what I've seen most of the time the original commenter doesn't reply, but I hope lurkers would check out a resource or two.

[–] cucumovirus@lemmygrad.ml 11 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Ivan Katchanovski has a lot of research on the Maidan coup with a lot of evidence debunking the western narrative around it.

https://uottawa.academia.edu/IvanKatchanovski

His twitter

[–] cfgaussian@lemmygrad.ml 10 points 3 months ago

My collection of sources is a bit chaotic right now and buried in various discussions, so if someone has time to go through, organize and label the sources i put together in the threads linked here: https://lemmygrad.ml/comment/7033058 that would be great.

[–] stink@lemmygrad.ml 9 points 3 months ago (1 children)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNZwLA869Sc

This video is by a Ukrainian, translated to english from Ukrainian.

It discusses the regime in Ukraine, and sheds light on what happened in Odessa.

[–] TankieReplyBot@lemmygrad.ml 2 points 3 months ago

I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:

[–] SunsetFruitbat@lemmygrad.ml 9 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

This source is useful in the sense it's straight from the horse's mouth itself. Since it's from a journal from west point in the united states talking about ukraine as a nexus for nazis. It says some interesting things in part two of it, that I'll highlight below. It kind of goes over things broadly of far right extreminism/nazis and then talks about nazis. Of course it purposefully ignores the u.s role in fermenting nazis and also has to talk about russia, but it does talk about nazis in ukraine and ukraine support of them like in part 2, and the international role that gets played to an extent but the article downplays things. It is best used in conjugation with other sources.

Just mainly useful in the sense that of the u.s military admitting to ukraine having nazis. Anyways it was published in 2020.

Archive ph/today link The Nexus Between Far-Right Extremists in the United States and Ukraine | Combating Terrorism Center at West Point, CTC Sentinel

just to share some highlights

In 2014, as pro-Russian groups began to seize parts of the Donbas, a neo-Nazi group that called itself Patriot of Ukraine formed a battalion to reinforce the beleaguered Ukrainian army. Few qualifications were required, and volunteers came from all walks of life. The group soon became better known as the Azov Regiment.

The author met some of the group’s fighters around the port city of Mariupol on the Sea of Azov in the summer and fall of 2014. At that time, few were properly armed or had much military training, but they were very much on the frontlines. The Azov Regiment enjoyed support from within the government of then President Petro Poroshenko and the security services,k despite well-documented reports of human rights abuses.70 The deputy head of the Kyiv region police Serhiy Bondarenko openly voiced his support for Azov in 2015.l Members of the Azov Regiment also organized youth camps that taught basic military skills and ideology.

The emergence of such an overtly far-right white nationalist militia—publicly celebrated, openly organizing, and with friends in high places—was electrifying to far-right individuals and groups in Europe, the United States, and further afield. Among them was the Christchurch shooter, Brenton Tarrant.

However, the National Corps’ strength does not lie in parliamentary corridors. It focuses on grassroots activism that translates into a street presence that often threatens its adversaries. In 2018, hundreds of members of its so-called “National Militia Units” paraded through Kyiv in uniform and swore to clean the streets of illegal alcohol, drug traffickers, and illegal gambling establishments.77 They began patrols in some Kyiv districts, ostensibly as part of an anti-crime campaign. A National Corps spokesman described the patrols as “part of the Azov movement” that would help “where the authorities either can’t or do not want to help the Ukrainian community.”78

Their presence was largely tolerated by the National Police and Interior Ministry, according to human rights researchers in Ukraine who have spoken with the author.79 n On June 8, 2018, a group from the National Militia Units attacked and destroyed a Romany camp in Kyiv after its residents failed to respond to their ultimatum to leave within 24 hours. Police were at the scene but did not intervene, according to witnesses

Another far-right group in Ukraine that has attracted interest and support among far-right extremists in the West is Right Sector. Originally involved in the Euromaidan protests in November 2013 because of its animosity toward Russia, Right Sector evolved into a volunteer fighting battalion in the Donbas.

Officials of the National Corps were instrumental in organizing ‘Paneuropa’ conferences in Kyiv in April 2017 and October 2018, attracting white supremacist and other far-right groups from across Europe.94 Semenyaka invited Greg Johnson, editor of Counter-Currents and a prominent figure in the U.S. alt-right movement, to the Kyiv conference in October 2018.p Johnson champions what he has called the “North American New Right,” whose goal (like that of several paramilitary groups) is a white ethno-state.95 At the conference, Johnson spoke about his Manifesto of White Nationalism and said that what was “happening in Ukraine is a model and an inspiration for nationalists of all white nations.”96 Also attending the event were representatives of the Norwegian Alliansen Nationalist Party, the neo-fascist CasaPound Italia, neo-Nazis affiliated with the German Der III. Weg and JN-NPD youth group, as well as Karpatsa Sich.

As noted, for now, the appeal of the Ukrainian ‘front’ to foreign volunteers, many of whom espouse far-right extremist views, has ebbed. However, the Kyiv government in December 2019 adopted a mechanism to apply legislation introduced by the leader of the National Corps Andriy Biletsky that makes it easier for foreigners fighting in the Ukrainian armed forces to acquire citizenship.149 Biletsky sits as an independent member of parliament.

[–] Maeve1@lemmygrad.ml 5 points 3 months ago

Wow. Nice share.

[–] WilliamA@lemmygrad.ml 6 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

https://www.patreon.com/posts/108100466?pr=true

The original video as well as the full sources for further reading introduced me to the Russia-Ukraine conflict when I first became a leftist and recently, I used these sources to make a summary of the conflict here (https://lemmy.ml/post/36330328/21164800)

Hope it helps and full credit to Hakim.

[–] Makan@lemmygrad.ml 5 points 3 months ago

Peace in Ukraine—and the world—requires U.S.-Russia normalization

https://peoplesworld.org/article/peace-in-ukraine-and-the-world-requires-u-s-russia-normalization/

[–] CommonTern@lemmygrad.ml 2 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Not a bourgeois source but still very thorough and links to other sources including some bourgeois ones: On Russia, Today’s Liberal Luminaries Take Their Cues From Fascists

It is divided into six chapters, which are summarized at the beginning as:

Chapter 1:Fascism and Anti-Communism: a Match Made in Hell – on Soviet anti-racism and the shared class interest between liberals and fascists.
Chapter 2:Goebbels, Hearst, Bandera, and McCarthy – Nazi propaganda makes its way to North America; the activities of Ukrainian nationalists during WWII; Ukrainian fascists come to America at the dawn of the Red Scare.
Chapter 3:Ronald Reagan and his Conquest – the Reagan administration’s plans for a gargantuan military buildup and propaganda offensive; Western intelligence agencies’ favorite “scholar” Robert Conquest; Ukrainian nationalists take up Reagan’s campaign.
Chapter 4:Washington Über Alles – Washington plunders a unipolar world; fascist advocacy groups and liberals promote Nazi lies; the birth of Cold War II.
Chapter 5:Timothy Snyder, Euromaidan, and the Fascist Offensive – Timothy Snyder brings fringe revisionist history into the mainstream; the specter of Stepan Bandera haunts Euromaidan; Democrats make friends with modern-day Banderites.
Chapter 6:#Resisting the Oriental-Bolshevik Menace – Democrats take up Ukrainian fascist propaganda; liberal luminaries manufacture an Orientalist hysteria; NATO threatens to unleash another Operation Barbarossa.

[–] TankieReplyBot@lemmygrad.ml 2 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

I found a YouTube link in your post. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy: