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Let it grow ^.^

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Resources on caring for plants that keep dying? (hexbear.net)
submitted 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) by TheSovietOnion@hexbear.net to c/gardening@hexbear.net
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All my plants die after they start growing and I don't know why. I've tried controlling every factor that I can although without a thermometer, higrometer, pH measuring etc. I even have a shitty microscope that I try to analyse the sick parts, but I can't find any reliable resources on how to actually interpret what I'm seeing. I want to know how to use this kind of data so that I can raise my plants right.

Where can I learn about this? I mean diagnosing problems, monitoring variables, finding solutions to each situation etc. google obviously sucks and gives nothing of substance

I will say that I recently got a new substrate, maybe the old one was the problem. But then there's my mother-in-law, who raises beautiful lavenders and all that using the exact same soil I'm getting shitty results with. I'm literally not doing anything different to her, so maybe it's the water? I really don't know.

Edit: in fact, the lush lavender 🪻 she is currently flexing is a piece of the one my partner bought. Same plant, same soil.

Edit 2: also, the roots always look alright when I dig their cadavers to analyze. No parasites, insects, obvious fungi etc in any part of any plant so far.

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[–] came_apart_at_Kmart@hexbear.net 7 points 1 month ago (1 children)

its every plant you try to grow? since you said substrate, this means you're growing in containers?

if both if those questions are yes, i am leaning towards an abiotic problem (not insects or diseases). usually/generally, over watering is the most common problem people new to plant production have. if you're delivering water right to the roots, it really requires very little to grow a healthy plant. if theres not enough air in the substrate pore space (because its overwatered), the root tissue dies, the plant stops taking up water/nutrients efficiently, the dead tissue becomes a disease vector and then the show's over and it looks wilted as fuck... which usually induces people to water more and exacerbate the problem.

container shape / poor drainage can cause these problems too. you really dont want there to be a water level in a container.

as far as references go, the ball seed grower guide is a good reference for container/indoor production for a lot of different plants, mostly ornamentals and flowers.

some of the really good references are crazy expensive though, like APS compedia for disease diagnostics.

for free references online you can trust to be research backed, i would add "cooperative extension" to your searches to look at land grant uni resources made for a public audience. theres one if every state, so even if you're not in the US you can probably find resources (fact sheets, toolkits, reference materials) that are made for a similar climate and distance from the equator.

[–] TheSovietOnion@hexbear.net 5 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

This could be it, thanks a lot!

After reading I just went to check, and the old soil is SO damn compact, just under the surface. It's like crumbling a soft stone. The water pools a little bit before draining, too. Maybe it's pooling for too long down there, at the root level in that compact soil?

The new substrate is absolutely much better at this regard. It's a mix of some plant fiber, perlite and rice husks. Water drains much better on this one. It also absorbs a LOT, and I don't know whether this is good or bad. I mean, a add a bunch of water to a little cup of the substrate, and 10s later it's as if there's barely any water at all, it just feels the same as dry. Should I keep adding water when this happens?

Thanks for the resources too. I'll make an update a month or so from now.

[–] came_apart_at_Kmart@hexbear.net 3 points 1 month ago

i was out of commission yesterday, but to answer your question... like its possible for substrate to get so dry it wont allow water to infiltrate / becomes hydrophobic but i doubt thats the problem here with what you've described.

generally, irrigation schedules call for a single significant watering event--where the container is saturated--in the early morning. and thats it for the day.

a container can be recognized as saturated when the volume of water being added displaces the same amount of water already in the container, leading it it immediately draining out if the bottom.

the substrate itself should be pretty loose, not packed tight. like you iust dumped enough in to the line. you want lots of pores everywhere for holding water droplets and air. ideal pore space volume is 50%: 25% for air, 25% for water. so half of a substrate should be empty space. if its less than that, its compacted and going to cause problems for plant production.

when you water in the morning it's saturated at 50% substrate, ~50% water. over the next hours more and more water is lost to evaporation, slow drainage from gravity, and some moving up through the plant's water column, which allows that pore space to have air pockets, which gradually approaches that 50:50 ratio. thats when the plant is most efficiently photosynthesizing.

this is a simplified, idealized description of whats happening.

anyway, the quick rule people use when evaluating substrate for water content is they stick their finger in it the substrate and if it feels "cool" compared to the ambient air temp, its fine and doesn't need watering. its definitely a vibe thing that comes with experience.

if theres a commercial greenhouse nearby, even retail (but not big box like home depot), you might consider popping in and seeing if you can ask a few home grower questions about watering. its a common issue and a lot of plant nerds are happy to demonstrate some basic concepts.

[–] Sebrof@hexbear.net 6 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Are you growing houseplants? What are you growing?

[–] TheSovietOnion@hexbear.net 4 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

After killing all the houseplants, I'm mostly growing seeds from plants I found in the street until I can get a good system going. Per iNaturalist, they are siratro and rattlepod. They have pretty flowers and were literally growing on asphalt, so I thought it would be easy lmao.

As for houseplants, there's the lavenders, cannabis and cosmea. They are all dead or dying though.

[–] Sebrof@hexbear.net 4 points 1 month ago (1 children)

You're growing these outdoor plants from seed indoors??

What good conditions found outdoors in the asphalt will not match your indoor location.

All the plants you've mentioned, lavender cosmos, siratro, etc all require high ligh conditions. Not easy to replicate inside even with grow lights (the sun is really bright)

If you are growing indoors you'll need to find some houseplants well suited for your location. Houseplants are actually suited for lower light conditions that are found indoors. But the plants you listed are no so much houseplants as they are (outdoor) garden plants, so they will struggle indoors unless you have excellent lighting conditions.

But if you have an outdoor space then it's a different story.

[–] TheSovietOnion@hexbear.net 3 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

Makes absolute sense. Funny enough, the rattlepods are the ones doing better so far.

The growlight I've got says it's PPF: 175 umol/s and photon efficiency of 2.7, I couldn't find helpful stuff on Google on how good this is. It's also very close to the plants. There's a fan in there to control temperature, which is doing a good job if my hand is a good thermometer

Edit: oh, and the lavender was from my "outdoors era". I actually bought a growlight and all the other stuff precisely because everything was dying on the balcony, and I thought it was due to way too much sun, heat (it's scorching in here) or wind. The siratros really flourished in the balcony and started spreading on my protection net, but that made them susceptible to birds and that was it. The rattlepods all died in the balcony too, like the others.

[–] Sebrof@hexbear.net 4 points 1 month ago (1 children)

I had a big message typed but it got deleted.

I may return to this later. But my main point was

a.) Gardening is wu-wei. Find the conditions you have, find the plants for your conditions, and let 90% of the work be done for you already. If you put too much effort you may kill your plants with kindness or micromanaging. That leads to

b.) The most common way to kill your plant is overwating. You only need to water maybe once a week or two indoors, but different plants are different. Use your finger (or a watermeter) to check the soil. Find a video about. Just stick your finger in the soil up to your first or second knuckle. If it's moist then don't water. Check again in a few days. If it's dry, water. Outdoor plants need more water because of higher temps, funnier location, etc.

Water until water runs out the drainage holes. Always use pots with drainage holes. Make sure your have a good houseplant soil mix with perlite. Usually the soil that plants in greenhouses have is too compact and retains too much water, so its usually a good idea to replace it if you suspect tet.

c.) Get some easy to care for plants like a Z plant, snake plant, pathos, etc. Learn to take care of it indoors without tools and gizmos. The boomer in me is showing lol. Just use your finger and your gut. Learn to watch the plant and notice how it changes as it needs more water, or light, etc. If you watch, you will learn to read your plants. They are living things and you can read their signs sometimes.

You can still try for the plants you have, but I'd still suggest the above beginner plants so you can get a feel and intuition for it.

It's easier than you're making it out to be. No need for gizmos. I'm shaking my old man fists at your clouds. My grandma did this during the depression for Pete's sake, with nothing but well water and a tin can - you go this!

And I know what you mean about Google being useless. I have some cool gardening books from the 70s and they had neat diagrams for diagnosing plant problems.

Pests like bugs you can deal with. It comes with the territory. A virus... well not so much. Better to just chunk a houseplant if it has a virus, as far as I know.

[–] TheSovietOnion@hexbear.net 3 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (2 children)

Thanks a lot for the help and advice, it's very appreciated.

Might be my neurodivergence showing, but I'm always trying to turn hobbies into a science or set process. You're right, I should be developing my feeling and intuition first and foremost, and the other more complex stuff only as support tools later.

What is that book called? It's actually the kind of stuff I was looking for as a beginner 😸 pretty pictures, explanations and clear directions

(Btw, mine look like #s 1, 2, 5 and 8. Gonna work on that now)

[–] Sebrof@hexbear.net 3 points 1 month ago

In my original message that I lost I actually went in to how I get your approach on some level because I have a STEM background and like to measure things. And that's why I like (less intense) indoor gardening because it lets me practice something differently than most of my other hobbies.

It's a hobby that is easy to make "zen", or whatever other word you think fits here, and so that's my approach. It's sorta meditative in its own ways.

But, I also wanted to mention that I appreciate that gardening is not like politics where different philosophies can feel personal, so if this style doesn't vibe with you then it's no sweat.

If I knew how to collect data on my plants I would have done it ;) and I've definitely mapped out the light intensity for each square foot across my room before and taken data on when I water. But I never regularly kept it up.

Regardless of the style, learning the basics with a snake plant is the easiest way to get started imo. Then once you can reliably have a control you can get all cybernetic with it. If you do please share because I do think it'd be cool to see!

[–] Sebrof@hexbear.net 3 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Oh also, the book is Foliage House Plants from some year in the 70s

And to be honest, sometimes the pictures for diagnosing problems are not as helpful as I wish. But just context clues can fill you in sometimes. Like a plant you know you haven't watered in a month in a dry room isn’t going to be overwatered regardless of what any picture you see may suggest (unless it's literally sitting in water, oops), or a plant in a dark corner won't be suffering from sun scorch, etc.

Unfortunately some of this just comes from experience and sometimes you may have to kill a few plants to learn. shrug-outta-hecks

[–] TheSovietOnion@hexbear.net 1 points 1 month ago

Thanks a lot again, I really liked talking about this with you 😸

[–] CompactFlax@discuss.tchncs.de 6 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

Lavender needs a lot of sun and a fair bit of warmth. Is your thermostat set the same as the MIL?

Watering is usually the critical factor. Too much, they die. Too little, they die. Signs of overwatering are similar to signs of under watering. Some plants like to be a bit dry before getting water, others need steady stream. Lavender doesn’t like being too wet.

Try to grow a snake plant or something bulletproof first.

[–] TheSovietOnion@hexbear.net 3 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Signs of overwatering are similar to signs of under watering

God damnit. Guess it's a lot about experience, right?

[–] CompactFlax@discuss.tchncs.de 4 points 1 month ago

Yeah. I have a couple indoor plants. When they start wilting I water them. But some plants really hate that and it can lead to fungal issues. So, it’s a lot of experience. IYKYK

And I’d investigate the soil situation. There’s so much variance in potting soil mixtures; some hold too much water, some don’t hold much at all. Indoors it’s usually easier to go with higher porosity and more frequent watering, than a soil that holds a lot of water. U less the plants like that. Chances are it’s been repotted at the MIL.

[–] UmmmCheckPlease@hexbear.net 5 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (2 children)

If the soil is really dried out I’ll water from the bottom too- set the container in another container filled with water, and let the soil pull the water up itself. Some soils can become hydrophobic when they reeeeally dry out, and this helps it to slooooowly pull moisture back in (vs just percolating through).

For most houseplants this is how I primarily water. Think of it like trying to drink as much water as you can from a glass with a straw vs from that same glass poured over your face all at once.

With larger outdoor containers I’ll replicate this by doing a “storage layer” of large rock at the bottom, and adding drain holes above that. That way the plants don’t risk drowning, but have a reservoir of moisture to keep soil moisture from getting too low

If you’re in the US many university extension offices have good info on houseplants - as well as agriculture - and identifying ailments based on leaves, etc

Edit - various extension links: https://essex.cce.cornell.edu/gardening/houseplants

https://extension.illinois.edu/houseplants/care

https://extension.umn.edu/find-plants/houseplants

https://extension.psu.edu/caring-for-houseplants

[–] TheSovietOnion@hexbear.net 2 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Damn, thanks!! I'll try watering this way now 😀

[–] miz@hexbear.net 5 points 1 month ago (1 children)

is your tap water chlorinated

[–] TheSovietOnion@hexbear.net 3 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Yes, but so is my MIL's

[–] miz@hexbear.net 3 points 1 month ago (1 children)

no filtration at her house?

[–] TheSovietOnion@hexbear.net 2 points 1 month ago

Nope, straight from the hose. It's also a very old house.

[–] BigWeed@hexbear.net 5 points 1 month ago (1 children)

It’s hard to kill a plant that has good drainage. Terracotta pots (if in containers) and well draining soil that goes deep enough. Plastic and concrete pots are killers for the occasional gardener.

You can measure ph cheaply by boiling red cabbage and using the juice as it’s a sensitive ph indicator in the plant range. I use it a lot b/c commercial ph meters suck sometimes.

If you’re worried about salt or whatever bad nutrients, just flush it with water and then add a very light nutrient solution (1/4th strength of a 20/20/20 or whatever).

For water, any filtering is better than none. But that usually advice for people who want perfect plants.

[–] TheSovietOnion@hexbear.net 3 points 1 month ago

Thanks a lot for the tips. After you guys, I'm thinking the drainage is a huge factor at play here. Also the plastic containers 🥹.

I'll absolutely do the cabbage test now, funny that I was right now on my way to look for cheap pH strips 😸

[–] muad_dibber@lemmygrad.ml 5 points 1 month ago

Good drainage, lots of air in the soil, don't overwater, and make sure they have sun. That's it for most plants.

If they don't look good, stop watering and put them in the sun, and don't water until they've dried out.

[–] plinky@hexbear.net 3 points 1 month ago (2 children)

like if soil is not an issue, and you can't see temperature problems, maybe you have dodgy air currents (hot or cold, extra dry air), fungus/mold, inappropriate sun amount? meow-floppy

try to find amateur gardening book before 2010s otherwise

[–] TheSovietOnion@hexbear.net 3 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (3 children)

I bought a grow lamp for them, I'm measuring the amount of light with some phone apps and it's pretty much the same as a 8-9am sunshine outside.

For practice, I've caught some seeds from native plants that I find pretty, and many of them were literally growing on concrete and asphalt agony-shivering

[–] CompactFlax@discuss.tchncs.de 4 points 1 month ago

It’s unlikely that you’re within an order of magnitude of the same light as outdoors, tbh. The sun is incredibly bright.

[–] miz@hexbear.net 3 points 1 month ago (1 children)

could you be overwatering?

[–] TheSovietOnion@hexbear.net 3 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

A lot of them dry up before dying, that's what happened to my lavender and now my cannabis seedlings. Others will turn droopy before dying, so maybe those are due to overwatering, right?

[–] plinky@hexbear.net 3 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

ah also, how quickly water goes through the pot out? maybe your soil needs to be tilled (for a lack of a better term), and doesn't retain liquid? or add some porous stones in it (do you check moistness say 1 day after watering, by sticking your finger 3-5 cm inside?)

*or overretains liquid tbh, but then you'll have to change soil itself or add sand, and that's unlikely to be the culprit if it works for your in law)

[–] TheSovietOnion@hexbear.net 3 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

do you check moistness say 1 day after watering, by sticking your finger 3-5 cm inside?

Nope! Although when I do check, it's mostly dry or just a bit moist. But again, I don't check it often or regularly. I'll have to start that now.

Another comrade also replied here with some nice insight about the soil and water drainage, and that might be most of the problem. I'll solve and monitor that for now and see how that goes. I'll ask my MIL if she did something to the soil, like digging for getting it looser or something, because after you guys gave me these tips, I went and noticed how compact this soil is just under the surface, almost like a soft stone. Maybe they all die around the same stage of growth because the roots just can't grow and get oxygen in that soil past a certain point? Then adding water makes it all worse

[–] plinky@hexbear.net 3 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

if things work out, later you don't need to recheck it that frequently, the finger check is mainly seasonal/plants needs/pot size adjustment, to see that plant has water, so like you check in 2 days after watering and soil still moist, then you wait for next day, if it's dry, then you learn you need to water every 3 days, if it's not - then you learn to water even rarer or use less water. (all pending that plant looks healthy of course, small palm trees don't like moist soil for example, and start to lose firmness in leafs, but more shadow loving plants love water)

[–] TheSovietOnion@hexbear.net 2 points 1 month ago

Thanks a lot 😸

[–] plinky@hexbear.net 3 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (2 children)

maybe it's too much sun, although if they are from local outside that's doubtful. maybe legit water problem like comrade suggested? try to baby feed them bottled water (and/or boiled and three day old water - chlorine slowly leeches from water in an open space, and boiling water removes hardness/calcium) for a couple of weeks?

[–] comrade_pibb@hexbear.net 4 points 1 month ago (2 children)

A number of municipal water systems now use chloramine to disinfect, which is far more stable. Aquarium heads don't really use the "let the water rest" trick anymore

[–] plinky@hexbear.net 4 points 1 month ago (1 children)

damn:( boiling water still might help tho or not?

[–] comrade_pibb@hexbear.net 5 points 1 month ago

speaking as a layperson, I didn't think boiling is very effective either. I use a reverse osmosis filtration system for my aquarium water.

[–] KuroXppi@hexbear.net 1 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Aquarium heads don't really use the "let the water rest" trick anymore

(Reading this thread a month late but)

Why doesn't this trick work anymore? Does chloramine not dissipate like chlorine?

[–] comrade_pibb@hexbear.net 2 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Yep, chloramine is much more stable which is why municipalities are using it in favor of chlorine

[–] KuroXppi@hexbear.net 2 points 6 days ago

I see that's interesting. My municipality still uses chlorine, I just checked, so I'll continue letting the water stand as I hear it's better for some plants like ferns

[–] TheSovietOnion@hexbear.net 3 points 1 month ago

Great tips, thanks! I'll do all of these.

I'll also try to only water them through the water purifier now, though I'm sure my partner does exactly that when she's the one watering

[–] TheSovietOnion@hexbear.net 3 points 1 month ago (1 children)

try to find amateur gardening book before 2010s otherwise

Do you have any suggestions?

[–] plinky@hexbear.net 3 points 1 month ago

nah i won't remember stuff i've seen at grandma place, i go by oral tradition (😎), probably won't be able to diagnose some fungi infection precisely anyways, outside of "that's a fungus" doggirl-smart

but i remember in 90s-2000s there were lots of books about home plants without woo-woo shit but before publishing industry died, so that's why i'm recommending that period just in general to search around.

[–] TheSovietOnion@hexbear.net 2 points 1 month ago

The most plausible explanation I've came up with:

Salt. I live near the ocean, while my MIL is a city away. Could it be salt in the air and water vapor making my plants lose moisture to the air through the leaves and to the salinized soil through the roots? I wonder if our water is more salinized than usual, too.