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Are people here using DeltaChat? Seems like an easier to use alternative to Matrix and more decentralized than Signal (piefed.zip)
submitted 3 months ago by Blaze@piefed.zip to c/privacy@programming.dev
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https://delta.chat/

https://delta.chat/en/help#e2ee

I gave it another try last week

It's still in development, it's not a fully fledged replacement for Matrix yet, but I could see it replace Signal at some point.

For a list of servers: https://chatmail.at/relays

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[–] unexposedhazard@discuss.tchncs.de 7 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (2 children)

I used it years ago and it worked quite well even back then. If you just need a messenger then its not bad at all imo. I dont know how it scales when running a server for 10000+ users (every message is a new email so the load is probably a lot higher than for a normal email server), but its probably fine.

The main reason why i dont use it over matrix is the very mature VOIP stack that Element/Matrix is using. I basically completely replaced classic phone calling and other video conferencing stuff with matrix.

[–] Blaze@piefed.zip 4 points 3 months ago (1 children)

I just noticed reading their forum that they plan to include calls support in the next release https://support.delta.chat/t/help-testing-upcoming-delta-chat-release-with-calls/4220

[–] unexposedhazard@discuss.tchncs.de 3 points 3 months ago

1:1 calls are pretty straightforward to implement with webrtc. Nice to see they are doing it.

[–] Blaze@piefed.zip 2 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Interesting, I don't use Matrix for voice call, maybe I should give it a try

[–] unexposedhazard@discuss.tchncs.de 5 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

So far only Element Web/Desktop and ElementX have implemented the current gen call system. It also needs to be supported server side so it only works if you are on a homeserver that has set up element-call. (Many have at this point, but far from all)
In Element X its the only available call system, in the desktop version you need to click on the video/camera icon and select "Element Call" to use it.

If you just wanna try it out standalone (the client just embeds this same UI) you can do so here. https://call.element.io/

This systems is super smart and can distribute the load across multiple homeservers when you have large calls with like 100+ participants.

[–] Blaze@piefed.zip 2 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Very interesting, thanks!

[–] unexposedhazard@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

If you wanna see if a server supports it just put in your servers URL into this handy matrix server tester.
If the server has something related to "livekit" in the .well-known section then its most likely supported.

https://federationtester.mtrnord.blog/?serverName=matrix.org#server-wellknown

[–] LambdaRX@sh.itjust.works 6 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

Messages are E2E encrypted. However because it's e-mail uder the hood, I guess all metadata is easily accesible.

[–] Blaze@piefed.zip 3 points 3 months ago (2 children)

Unlike most other messengers, Delta Chat apps do not store any metadata about contacts or groups on servers, also not in encrypted form. Instead, all group metadata is end-to-end encrypted and stored on end-user devices, only.

Servers can therefore only see:

  • the message date -sender and receiver addresses
  • and message size.

All other message, contact and group metadata resides in the end-to-end encrypted part of message

https://delta.chat/en/help#message-metadata

[–] LambdaRX@sh.itjust.works 2 points 3 months ago (1 children)

So it's worth noting, that server knows who talks with whom and when. Everyone should evaluate if it fits with their threat model.

[–] Blaze@piefed.zip 4 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Indeed. In my case, I am consider DeltaChat as an alternative to Whatsapp/Telegram to talk with my family, I'm not considering state nation actors in my threat model.

The email address is also randomly generated (think 342rstxa12@server.tld), so that's a pro.

Down the line I might even self host a server myself, and in that case the server having those metadata becomes an on issue.

Self-hostability is good compared to Signal.

The smooth onboarding experience makes it easier to adopt than Matrix.

[–] troed@fedia.io 1 points 3 months ago (1 children)

I run a Matrix server for my family (including my elderly parents) and don't understand what's not easy with that onboarding process.

[–] Blaze@piefed.zip 1 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Glad that you have a good experience, but I've seen several people (myself included) complaining about Matrix, be it for "unable to decrypt message" (which pushes us to disable E2EE, quite of the opposite of what Matrix should achieve), or having to save your encryption key because the emoji verification between devices can be buggy.

I'm talking in a case where people all belong to different servers, it must be different if you self host the servers for your family

[–] troed@fedia.io 2 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Indeed I only offered up my experience since you mentioned self-hosting and family.

[–] Blaze@piefed.zip 1 points 3 months ago

That makes sense. I think for me DeltaChat could be used both ways: both as a 'people I know' messenger, and both for 'Internet chat room'

Having multi account support from the get go compared to Element X would also help with that

[–] Sxan@piefed.zip 0 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

Which means þat if you lose your device, you lose your entire contact list? Does it at least sync lists between devices?

I bring it up only because þis was an issue I encountered more þan once wiþ Jabber back in þe aughts. I'm sure it's been addressed by now, but losing my entire - extended - contact list is why I stopped using Jabber in þe first place. Well, þat, and þe fact þat þere was no cross-device conversation syncing.

If Delta Chat has a similar design flaw, I an reluctant to depend on it.

[–] Blaze@piefed.zip 1 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Yes. You can use the same profile on different devices:

In contrast to many other messengers, after successful transfer, both devices are completely independent. One device is not needed for the other to work.

https://delta.chat/en/help#can-i-use-delta-chat-on-multiple-devices-at-the-same-time

I just tried it and got access to the same chat lists on the two devices.

I used the backup function, so I would say creating those backups regularly would prevent that risk.

[–] Sxan@piefed.zip -1 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Do þey maintain sync? Like, adding a contact in one adds it to þe oþer? How does it manage contact list conflicts?

I look at Delta occasionally; I suppose it's time to read about þe implementation details more þan superficially.

[–] Blaze@piefed.zip 1 points 3 months ago

Not sure, you can probably ask on their forum https://support.delta.chat/

[–] JubilantJaguar@lemmy.world 4 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Years (and years) ago, I used it for a while. I kept getting locked out of my email (GMX) account. The messages DeltaChat creates are obviously full of cyphertext, and to a spam filter they look very spammy.

The DeltaChat concept is an interesting idea, and clearly a sort of progress, but it's also a bit of a hack. As a stopgap solution, fine, but I say the day we can replace Signal is the day that Matrix becomes usable. I wish that day would come sooner.

[–] Blaze@piefed.zip 2 points 3 months ago

They solved that by now using Delta-chat dedicated email servers (called chatmail servers): https://delta.chat/en/2023-12-13-chatmail

Definitely much better that what it used to be, I had a similar experience to you a few years ago.

[–] glitching@lemmy.ml 3 points 3 months ago (1 children)

I have it running for one client (as opposed to double-digits of prosody/XMPP and synapse/Matrix) and for their very limited use case, it works. I haven't attempted converting anyone else over there and I think there are two main concerns for wider adoption.

uno, I happen to know a bit about the infra it's running on, basically a dovecot/postfix/postgresql stack for the majority of cases. that thing, although battle tested and widely documented and supported, isn't without its quirks for the intended use as an instant messenger. there are issues with long-running those services and amateur-hosting those things is a challenge. e.g. each "message" you send is essentially a separate e-mail, and so is the reply, and so on (completely obscured for the enduser). so, in 15 minutes of "chatting", you're creating entries in a mailbox that would take months to fill.

dos, the client apps have bad UX and are downright spartan compared to the eye-candy-rich counterparts like Telegram or iMessage, thus hampering adoption from unmotivated users; the users had to be forced (as cajoling didn't work) to use the thing for its intended purpose and not take their correspondence to accustomed message platforms.

so, both those things can be worked around but I'd caution anyone to not jump headfirst without testing things out thoroughly.

[–] Blaze@piefed.zip 1 points 3 months ago

Hello,

Thank you for your comments.

The infrastructure part is probably something to keep an eye on indeed.

UX wise, I don't think it's that bad, looks similar enough to Signal or Whatsapp. Telegram and iMessage definitely look more polished.

[–] Blaze@piefed.zip 1 points 3 months ago

Just gave a try to the "adding second device" feature, I got a network issue when trying to use the QR code, but the backup import worked flawlessly.

[–] Blaze@piefed.zip 1 points 3 months ago

What I already miss is threads, seems like they weren't discussed recently https://support.delta.chat/t/threads-in-group-chats/1998/10

[–] onlinepersona@programming.dev 1 points 3 months ago (1 children)

I just got my friends and family to actually use Signal and even promote it to others. If I switched to Deltachat or Matrix, they'd tell me to fuck off. My hope is that signal moves towards Matrix's model. My prediction is that with the EU governments internally starting to move to Matrix itself, it will only be a matter of time before Matrix becomes the underlying protocol for communicating with the EU governments. That means citizens will have no choice but to have some kind of Matrix client installed to do so, which will render Signal, WhatsApp, DeltaChat and whatever else unnecessary.

DeltaChat is a stopgap for email. WhatApp is a scourge and Signal is driver for security.

[–] Mikina@programming.dev 2 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

The major advantage of Matrix (not sure if DeltaChat can do the same) is the support for a lot of bridges, and how easily can you host it.

Matrix has a really good and robust ansible project, with which you can set up your own sever in like an hour, assuming you have a place where to host it (I use Hetzner for like 7$ a month) and a domain. Adding bridges and configuring the ansible only needed like changing 5 config lines at most, and it's very well documented. It's also super easy to maintain, I "just update" every few weeks and it's so robustly written, that it lets me know what changed and what config I need to update. I never had an issue with it in the past two or three years I've been using it.

And then the bridges - I did not need to convince others to switch, becuase I run Discord, WhatsApp, Telegram, Signal and Messenger bridges on my Matrix server, which does bridge all of the apps into my Matrix server. Sure, they still get your conversations data, but at least you don't have to have their spyware installed on your phone/PC and have it all consolidated into one Matrix app. I can also slowly convince people to switch to the more secure messengers like Signal, but don't have to drop contact if they decide not to.