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I am not a boy because my parents observed my penis at the 12 week echo. I am a boy because the sperm cell that made me, carried the right chromosome. It was decided at fertilization. Even if my parents never observed me, I would still be a boy.

The experiment described in the Veritasium video splits a particle in an electron and a proton. They must have opposite spin and that is measured at the time of observation. Than there's a whole discussion about faster than light communication, but if the spin is given at the moment of creation, both will have the opposite spin from the start. It can still be random and measurements will still have a 25% failure rate.

What am I missing? Can the spin change between creation and measurement?

What happens if a particle doesn't get observed, does it not have spin?

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[–] Tehhund@lemmy.world 15 points 3 days ago (1 children)

One of the best things I've read recently (wish I could find it again) said that quantum mechanics isn't about reality, it's a model of what we can measure and study. We simply can't know what reality is like at atomic and subatomic scales, we can only model what the measurements say. It turns out we can do a lot of really impressive science with those models (nuclear power, semiconductors, lots of other stuff), but acting as if we know what's actually going on at those levels is fooling ourselves. Even the people who laid the foundation for modern quantum theory knew this:

Bohr once commented that a person who wasn’t outraged on first hearing about quantum theory didn’t understand what had been said.

Heisenberg, when asked how one could envision an atom, replied: “Don’t try”

  • A Short History of Nearly Everything

So what does this have to do with your question? Well, I'm not saying that fundamental reality does not exist at subatomic scales. But I am saying that we can't really know anything about that reality until we measure it.

Did the electron have its spin at creation, or at measurement? We can't really say, and it's not especially important.

A bit of a tangent: we don't fully understand quantum entanglement over distances (e.g., the fact that we can know the spin of one particle from another entangled particle's spin even over great distances), but the explanation I like is that both particles' states are just the propagation of their combined wave equation since they were first entangled. So were their spins assigned at entanglement or at measurement? Well, we don't know and it's not a meaningful question because we can't determine the answer without measurement.

Your chromosome analogy doesn't really work because your chromosomes are a classical system. They have been entangled with countless other molecules for as long as they have existed, so we can use our human intuition to reason about their past and future in ways that we can't reason about things at quantum scales.

[–] abbadon420@sh.itjust.works 4 points 3 days ago

Ah yes, the classic mistake I made was trying to understand something about quantum physics XD

Your quotes explain it well.

I once knew I shouldn't do that, that's why we have these seemingly ridiculous theories. But it's been a while since I've occupied my mind with the subject.

I'm now reminded of this old joke by Dutch commedian Herman Finkers

"My wife doesn't understand me", said Einstein

[–] teawrecks@sopuli.xyz 4 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

Maybe give it a second watch. Your proposal is literally what Einstein suggested, and what Bell's experiment disproved.

Even if my parents never observed me, I would still be a boy.

Technically, quantum mechanics says no. This is the Schrodinger's Cat situation.

What happens if a particle doesn't get observed, does it not have spin?

It is said to be in a superposition of having both spins. It collapses to one spin when observed.

[–] teft@piefed.social 6 points 3 days ago

Electron and positron* not proton.

He explains in the video why the particles can’t have local hidden variables. I suggest you watch a video specifically about local hidden variables and Bell’s theorem.

[–] VoterFrog@lemmy.world 11 points 3 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

It sounds like you're asking why local hidden variables can't explain the experimental results? But a huge part of the video is spent explaining this so I'm assuming that isn't what you mean. So I'm not sure what it is exactly that you're asking. Could you elaborate on how what you're suggesting differs from the local hidden variable explanation?

ETA: I think you are asking about hidden variables but maybe don't realize it because it was brushed over in the video. When she's discussing the possible strategies for how the particles would decide their orientation, she says there are only 2 strategies that work. Your strategy is one that doesn't and here's why I think that is.

Say your electron is created with 0 degree spin. When deflected with a 0 degree detector, the electron goes up and the positron goes down 100% of the time. Great. But what about the 120 degree detector? Well the electron goes up 3/4 of the time and down 1/4. The positron goes up 1/4 and goes down 3/4. But this can't be. If the electron goes up, the positron must go down. So in order for it to work, they'd need to pick one of the strategies she talks about in the video. They need to agree on how they'd respond to each of the orientations separately, rather than just agree on a spin direction at creation.

[–] CanadaPlus 1 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

Haven't seen the video, but can probably still answer the question.

Basically, if the experiment is set up right, it's not the obvious number you'd expect. It's as if they're passing notes to beat the measurements. (Although not enough to transmit novel information, which is another QM misconception)

If you want to understand it rigorously, this section of this article might help. Jargon is the only real thing that I can see that would be a barrier.

[–] TootSweet@lemmy.world 6 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

That's... kindof the question, isn't it?

(Disclaimer: I haven't seen the video yet. But yeah.)

That's a quantum mechanics thing. And quantum mechanics has a long history of making physicists and physics students really uncomfortable. The following two quotes illustrate just how fucked up quantum mechanics really is:

God does not play dice

  • Albert Einstein

I don't like it, and I'm sorry I ever had anything to do with it.

  • Erwin Schrödinger

Before quantum mechanics, our Newtonian understanding of the world was really simple. We thought particles were little billiard balls floating around and bumping into each other and being attracted and repelled by electric fields and such. But nope! Turns out you can't even conceptually understand what's going on at that scale without making the observer/measurer/measurement a central feature of the literal math. But if you don't do the uncomfortable things in the math, you can't get results from the math that match what happens in the real world.

W.

T.

F.

Seriously. You're asking exactly the right question. The question that made the discoverers of quantum mechanics uncomfortable in the first place. Unfortunately, there's no one answer to it. There are a bunch.

In practice, you don't really have to have "the answer" to that question to design functioning solid-state storage devices or predict the half-life of a muon. You can just kindof throw up your hands and take it for wrote that "the spin doesn't exist until it's measured" (nor the position nor the velocity nor any of a bunch of other such properties of the particles in the system). But it's not like physicist don't still have this question in the back of their minds keeping them up at night.

[–] pixeltree@lemmy.blahaj.zone 4 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Gender isn't chromosome dependent =D

[–] Vanth@reddthat.com 6 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (1 children)

Also not how biological sex works either. The sperm carries both X and Y, contributing only one at time of fertilization (except for the rare chromosomal variation).

Also, not at all related to spin of an electron. Not everything is impossible to observe state and location at the same time. I, for example, am currently observable on my couch with minimal motion in any direction.

[–] modernangel@sh.itjust.works 2 points 3 days ago

In particle physics, a hadron takes on attributes like charge, up/down, or left/right by simple addition of the attributes of constituent particles. But in biology, there is not a simple correspondence of any sex chromosome pattern to anatomical sex presentation. X, XX, XY, XXY, XYY, chimeras and more are viable patterns and none of them guarantee presentation as anatomically male, female, or intersex. Different rules at such vastly different scales.

[–] PattyMcB@lemmy.world 3 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Disclaimer: I'm probably oversimplifying it

The best way i can describe it is that the spin of the electron could be either, BUT when the observation is made, you now exist in one of the possible universes where it you and it are now entangled where it has only the spin that you observed.

This means there is (according to my lay person understanding) that after the observation there are now two discrete universes where each version of the particles exist with opposing spin.

[–] sik0fewl@lemmy.ca 1 points 3 days ago

That's the multiple worlds theory, which is discussed in the video.

[–] Valmond@lemmy.world 2 points 3 days ago (1 children)

I read it's like a pair of shoes, in two boxes, randomly mixed. If you open one box, you instantly knows if the other shoe is the left or the right one, even if it's on the other side of the universe. Before opening, you don't know which one is in which box.

Then the explanation sais it was wrong.

[–] badcommandorfilename@lemmy.world 8 points 3 days ago (1 children)

The shoe analogy is an example of the "hidden variable" interpretation, which unfortunately is disproven by Bells Theorem.

The thing about quantum mechanics is that it's just different to classical mechanics. Any attempt to explain the behavior using a non-quantum analogy is going to be insufficient. How do electrons behave? They behave like electrons according to the rules of quantum physics... Not like tennis balls.

[–] bunchberry@lemmy.world 2 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

Bell's theorem does not disprove hidden variables as it relies on various assumptions.

(1) Locality. The EPR paper already proves a non-hidden variable model of locality is mathematically impossible, so if you are rejecting hidden variables, you're already rejecting locality, so Bell's theorem no longer applies.

(2) Fundamental arrow of time, more specifically that systems can only be affected by events in a local causal chain down its backwards light cone but not its forward light cone. This requires a rigorous definition of which temporaral direction is "forwards" vs "backwards," something Bell never provides. Without it, there is no obvious reason that causality should flow in one direction and not the other. A model where causality is indifferent to the arrow of time is called time-symmetric.

(3) Free will, the assumption that humans have the ability to make decisions that are statistically independent of all physical phenomena (note that the assumption is that they "have the ability to" not all decisions are statistically independent of all physical phenomena). If there is a law of physics that enforces certain correlations such that a system cannot evolve in a way to break those correlations, given that humans are also made of particles that obey the laws of physics, humans would also be unable to make the conscious decision to break those correlations, leading to an unintentional bias in each experiment. Dropping the free will assumption gives you what is called superdeterminism.

Bell himself did not believe he ruled out hidden variables but was the biggest advocate of them. Bell thought the free will assumption was necessary for the scientific method and that time-symmetry was not even worth considering. He also understood that the EPR paper succeeding in completely ruling out local non-hidden variable models. Hence, he concluded that his theorem just rules out local hidden variable models, not hidden variable models in general, and if you combine that with the results of the EPR paper that rule out local non-hidden variable models, then the natural conclusion is that Bell ruled out locality as a whole.

Indeed, that was Bell's actual conclusion and belief regarding his theorem. Bell regarded his finding as having ruled out locality, not hidden variables. Bell was a major proponent of nonlocal hidden variable models, he even wrote a paper trying to develop Bohm's pilot wave theory and accused other physicists of intentionally trying to keep quantum mechanics seemingly more mysterious by sweeping it under the rug.