I do partially agree but making the language less and less expressive because some individuals can’t or won’t learn simple rules is harming for everybody else.
Literally^1^ no one is harmed
^1^and I do mean literally, in the classical sense
You just had to footnote your one line comment because of language erosion. Take that as you will.
You just ~~had~~ chose to footnote your one line comment because of ~~language erosion~~ writer's autonomy
Nice try. Fun fact: Language prescriptivism is at best classist, at worst white nationalist behavior. Take that as you will, and have fun on my blocklist.
Wow that's quite the abrasive response to an off the cuff remark. Have a nice life.
Still it will be hard to break to my mixed race kids that their dad is a secret white nationalist.
Descriptivism is a vestige of pre-industrial society. Prescriptivism is a necessity of universal literacy. Language evolves over time, and one of the ways in which it evolves is how it evolves. Also, if you believe in linguistic descriptivism, you are also required to believe in a descriptivist system of weights and measures, or vice versa, or you're a hypocrite. Thank you for attending my TED talk, I am not taking questions.
???
People hate when you say this but you're right, prescriptivism is a fucking disgusting practice and anyone who supports it needs to take a long hard look at the rest of their opinions and why they hold them.
Rules in languages serve the same purpose as standards in engineering. Sure, you don’t have to follow them. And if you want your home’s piping to use 81/13 inch diameters, knock yourself out. But it’s a pain for everyone who will ever be involved with that mess. And a lot of people are involved in your choice of words and grammar.
You're really comparing language to engineering
STEM brainrot take
STEM brainrot take
Gotta love a civil discussion.
I was able to clearly understand your message even though you defied prescriptive conventions by using "gotta"
Gotta love how language evolves. I'm going to fuck up so many conventions today, just you wait and see!
THEM: don't make language less expressive
YOU: wow you just used a thing that makes language more expressive CHECKMATE
When it comes to grammar and syntax it makes sense though. Common rules help us understand each other.
Except that we're talking about individual words here. It's not as if we're saying verbs are over now or that all sentences have to be all "Shaka, when the walls fell" or something.
You could have made that point without being rude towards the entirety of the STEM community, but chose not to.
You're in a discussion about language but unable to navigate analogy? Or even just be civil and engage in a respectful manner? Maybe sit this one out.
you're literally making their point for them by (deliberately) misinterpreting what they meant by "harm" in a way that wouldn't be possible if the language was more expressive
Not if I cause them harm.
Normally I say the "usage defines meaning" argument is flimsy at best and actively encourages misuse that ultimately limits the ability for precision and nuance in language. 'Since' isn't causal, 'because' (as one can guess) is. "I've been sick since Thursday" means one thing, "I've been dice because of Thursday" means a different thing.
But then an old farmer will tell you a story about needing to buy some rubbers because they're getting into their tranny and I think, "those words don't mean that to me."
I'd say that having three different words for "because" increases nuance. As the link to merriam-webster's article pointed out, you get a nuance of formality between "because" and "as"; "as" is somewhat more formal. I'm not sure if there's another nuance between "because" and causal "since" but smart money is on there being one (if you survey the use of the two I bet you will find there are very subtle differences of usage there -- there almost always are nuances of difference between supposedly synonymous words, even if they're only differences like level of formality).
the "usage defines meaning" argument is flimsy at best
So what else does? I never understood how you can reason the objective meaning of a bunch of phonemes. If usage doesn't define meaning, you can look up the meaning in a dictionary. But if it's a good dictionary, it deduces the meaning of the word by its usage. There is ultimately no other way.
But then a good dictionary is ultimately personal, contextual, regional, and ephemeral, making it ultimately useless.
I will never recognise 'suposably' as a proper English word. But my children might, and so to their children, until it universally is a correct, proper word. That's the scope of the tide of language.
Its a necessary battle between the old ways and the new, one that I know I am ever drifting to the wrong side of. When some people use the word wrong, they are wrong. When everyone uses the word wrong, they are right. The old guard dies and the new gaurd rises.
Languages evolve, but you’re still allowed to have an opinion about how they should evolve.
People call it “political correctness” when you want to change things, or pedantry when you want things to stay the same or revert back.
I think it’s one of those George Carlin scenarios:
Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?
While language does evolve over time, we shouldn't encourage unnecessary and somewhat negative evolutions of it, and especially not encourage it to change over less time.
When two previously distinct words come to have the same meaning, this can be a problem. First, older written things become less comprehensible. Few of us today could read and understand old english because so many words have changed. The evolution of language has taken a long time to get to that point, at least. But if we encourage the acceleration of this change, something which appears to be happening even without encouragement, how long will it be?
Today, we can still pretty clearly understand things written 200 years ago; some bits are confusing but for the most part it is still clear. If language change accelerates enough, in the future, people may struggle to understand something written only a hundred years ago, or even less.
The second problem is that if the word for a thing goes away, it becomes more difficult to express that concept. Consider the word 'literally' whose meaning has become extremely muddled. In order to express the original concept, we now require additional emphasis. There are other, more difficult to think of terms like that - a concept for which a particular word would have been perfect had the word's meaning not significantly changed.
So when a word's usage is corrected, do not be so quick to defend the misuse of the word through 'language evolves!' If people accept that 'oops, I used that word wrong' and then see if there is already a better word for what they were trying to express to correct themselves with, that is probably better - in most cases.
Even more notably, new words should be used when possible, if an older word doesn't quite fit a newly emerging thing, or even a concept that has existed for some time but has not had a word to describe it precisely. One of my favorite examples of this is the word 'cromulent' which expresses a concept that did not have a specific word for it in common use at the time, even though the concept of 'understandable and linguistically correct' certainly already existed. Also consider the now common word 'emoji' which was coined specifically to represent this concept. This is an excellent evolution of language because it took nothing away. It arose in response to something which did not exist, and described that thing with a word created specifically for it.
That said, fighting against the evolution of language that has already happened and is far too entrenched to ever change is nonsensical. My father, for instance, insists 'cool' should be for temperature description only, even though that word possessed its non-temperature meaning before he was even born. Similarly, sometimes the change is resisted for bad reasons; like the word 'gay'. In these cases, it is best not to try to fight the change, but instead embrace and encourage it.
So ultimately, when a word is used wrong, consider whether the word evolving to the way it is being used is a positive change. If it does not make things better, it's probably best not to encourage it.
You say this like it's a fact that the word "literally" is worse now than it was before its recent evolution. You're reducing the entire value of a word to a metric of "clarity"/"muddledness", but natural language has value beyond its ability to be technically precise.
It's worse in that there is now no common way to say what it used to mean, without adding several more words, where previously one would have communicated the meaning clearly.
Anytime a language change increases the likelihood of misunderstanding it definitely has negative effects. It may also have positive effects, but it shouldn't be simply accepted without regard to that.
Now, disagreement on whether a particular change's negative outweighs its positive is going to happen, obviously, but it's important to acknowledge the bad parts exist.
It's also important not to accept a mistake and insist that it's fine because language changes, out of pride and desire to not be mistaken - a trend I definitely see a lot. It's often not 'I am using this word in a different way and have considered it's implications', it's 'I don't want to be wrong so I will insist that I didn't make a mistake, language changes!'
It's not that the word "literally" is worse now. It's that it used to represent an idea (the idea of a thing being non-figurative) which it's slowly coming to not mean anymore.
Words map to meanings. Those mappings can shift and change over time. But if that happening leaves a particular meaning orphaned then I'd think of that as unfortunate, no?
Maybe instead of changes being "good" or "bad" it's more like "this shift in language increases (or decreases) the total expressiveness of the language". Would you be less up in arms at that way of putting it?
Let's not start deciding what's positive and negative evolution of a language. We all know who gets discriminated against because of this.
I haven't seen an argument on English grammar because yesterday
You will not be forgiven for your since
I’ll save you the trouble of looking it up:
Since as a conjunction can refer both to causation and to the passage of time […], and the mavens believed strongly that since there's potential confusion over which meaning of since is meant, one should avoid since as a causal conjunction.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/grammar/since-as-because-usage
As a foreign learner I’ve never heard of this debate. To me, “since” simply has two meanings, like almost every other word in English.
naw that ain't the problem it's that I don't like how language is taught as something completely still and unchanging when it very much isn't
Two things.
For example, I love that we verbify stuff more these days. That's super cool. I do it all the time because I love that active voice. On the other hand flammable and inflammable slowly becoming the same thing kinda sucks because now what word do you use when you want to say what "inflammable" used to mean? You can do it. Just not as nicely. If people evolve the language that way then fine, I'll go along. But if language naturally changes based on usage, what's wrong with using it the way that you want to see it become (or remain)?
People also tend to forget that dictionaries were compiled for the sake of selling them for profit.
Dictionaries aren't the be all end all of a language.
If something accurately communicates an idea, then it has done its job. You can argue for accuracy, but at the end of the day, fuck off.
I don't think you can put this at the feet of BIG DICTIONARY.
Dictionaries are generally descriptivist and don't preach. It's style guides and individual angry language weirdos who preach.
I think it's funny when people use the dictionary like it's some perfectly unbiased and authoritative source, rather than a compilation of how people use words
Holy shit we've really started going after big dictionary now as well? What's next, big water?
Someone compared dictionaries to maps. If the map shows a street that's unusable or doesn't show a street that's clearly there and leads to your goal, don't trust the map over reality. The map needs an update and so do dictionaries
a lot of them were made for national pride (not English ones necessarily)
Seriously, be open to new interpretations! Don’t loose your head over something minor.
Agreed, we should of kown this.
I think english evolves faster than other languages or at least it has evolved a lot in the last centuries, at least in my limited experience. I can understand old german and medieval spanish with just minor issues... old english? No thanks
People huffing and puffing about other people not using words the way they expect: "God this wind is terrible, we need to abolish wind or at least make it blow in a different direction"
Language also evolved differently in different regions and culture groups. Here in Louisiana we have much more French terms in average usage than other regions on the US. That doesn't mean that us using those term like "Laissez les bons temps rouler" is wrong at all ( and I do support voice removal of people that disagree) you can't control language because it develops to fill what it is needed for. In some regions conscience speech in important, in others more descriptive language is needed.
Be sure to follow the rule before you head out.
Rule: You must post before you leave.
